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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

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181–190 of 311 posts

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#181

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

The moment we stop talking to people we want to change, then we lose all hope of doing so.

Why would you want them to change? And change to become what? To become more like you? To me Western civilisation has this recurring feature to want other people to be like them. It was the case with proselytism, colonialism, etc.

I understand a will to change a threatening country, or to get rid of a really evil tyran like Pol Pot. But a country having a different level of censorship of the media is not, to me, a casus belli.

We can be proud of many parts of Western values and culture and even whish more people adopted them, but then it should be like with a friend with some weaknesses, you'll be more friendly and show by example how to handle things differently, instead of taking distances or lecturing constantly.

So either you use brute force, against a major threat against your people or a tyran, or you try to promote the soft way your best parts, by showing their good effect on your own society. In this case, with all the very worrying problems we have, I would understand other countries like China to be sceptical.

And by the way, China has already embrassed many of the good (hear: useful) parts of Western culture, like science and law. But it takes a lot of time to implement and get the positive results, around 50 years.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#182

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

I know communism left a big scar on you, which is totally understandable. The Romanian Communist government was a puppet one imposed by Stalin's Red Army, which has no legitimacy anyway. That is not the case for China. The Chinese Communist Party has led the Chinese people to resist the Japanese invaders in World War II for eight years, which gave them the legitimacy back then. The economical progress they led in China for the past thirty years gave them the legitimacy now.

Maybe it's nowadays politically correct in the West to bash China. Though I do think you're being overly zealous here by promoting boycotting China economically. China has been making huge progresses for the past three decades both financially and socially. Hundreds of millions of Chinese peasants got out of poverty and started enjoy more freedom in education, living, migration and social upwardness. On that fact alone, China should be praised instead of being scolded on.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#183
post #88
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you were there, did you get a feel for whether people there would pay for a semi-reliable bridge through the firewall?

"Will they pay for freedom"? Seriously?

I think there's a parallel here with how the FCC tries to censor certain words and images, but you can pay a premium to get them via non-public, historically illegal [1], means.

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1468

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not reasonable to round up protesters and throw them in jail. That's an authoritarian regime who's afraid of its population. At the same time, they ask this population to lead China to greater economic growth. It does not make sense.

That's an entirely separate matter - and kind of off-topic, considering how this thread is about Internet censorship, not treatment of dissenters.

It's totally related. Protesting is speech that is censored when the government throws people in jail.

It has the same effect as internet censorship. People who speak up are prevented from communicating with the rest of society.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#185
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more serious, like calling for actual Western war criminals, and those of Western allies, to be brought to court. You won't go to jail; because nobody (who matters) will listen to you. And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real…

Oh, I think Mr. Snowden would disagree on the "nobody has done it before." And he wasn't the first.

I don't know that Snowden is a good example: he had to flee his country in a hurry. There is a great deal of uncertainty about whether he would have a fair trial in the US, a country where many are calling him a traitor.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the problem isn't when only certain media sources are allowed - honestly, the problem is when any media sources are allowed at all. Frankly, I think Amercians are as deceived by propaganda as the Chinese. Did we somehow forget in this thread that in western press, one can rarely find an article that isn't full of bullshit? Even if the reasons differ (western media do this for profit), the end result is the same.

> honestly, the problem is when any media sources are allowed at all Lol. Yes let's just stop all people from communicating. That will solve everything. > in western press, one can rarely find an article that isn't full of bullshit There's plenty of good reporting in the West. The way to get informed is to read many viewpoints and form your own opinion. Stopping all non-government press would be terrible for a countr…

A Soviet émigré (who worked for me) was baffled by American politics. I explained that while the Soviets tightly controlled information, we Americans overwhelm and distract. Different strategies, same results.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#187
post #182

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

I know communism left a big scar on you, which is totally understandable. The Romanian Communist government was a puppet one imposed by Stalin's Red Army, which has no legitimacy anyway. That is not the case for China. The Chinese Communist Party has led the Chinese people to resist the Japanese invaders in World War II for eight years, which gave them the legitimacy back then. The economical progress they led in Chi…

>Hundreds of millions of Chinese peasants got out of poverty and started enjoy more freedom in education, living, migration and social upwardness. On that fact alone, China should be praised instead of being scolded on.

In the west you'll find it common to think that Chinese Communism caused the famines and decades of failure and it was their integration of Western Capitalism and reduction of communism that led to their massive increase in industry and wealth.

Which is the same narrative you'll find for the falling of the USSR and Putin's magical rebuilding of Russia.

So many Westerners instead of praising Chinese communists for the success they have, they scold them for waiting so long and killing so many millions before _finally_ listening to what the westerners were saying a hundred years prior: private markets and private control of capital is the only way to build a modern industrious economy and lift subsistence farmers out of abject poverty at efficient scale.

I'm not here to bash China, I just want to express the common views and opinions that I hear on the subject.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#188

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

>I don't care much about what the Chinese do within their borders. The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. >Now that's fucked up, because we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience, also sending the message that it's OK as a country to violate basic human rights, as long as you're powerful enough. Money trumps everything, great thing to teach our kinds, kudos folks.

Well said. It's ridiculous we enforce labor and environmental laws in the US, then buy products from countries using slaves, sweatshops, and polluting without any regard. We sell out our ideals to save a few bucks.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more serious, like calling for actual Western war criminals, and those of Western allies, to be brought to court. You won't go to jail; because nobody (who matters) will listen to you. And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real…

Are you suggesting that there is some sort of equivalence between people refusing to listen to your stuff, and getting sent to jail for your words/beliefs?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the fundamental problem with democracy: people are easily influenced That's not a problem with democracy. It's how people learn. We learn something and form an opinion about it. The problem comes when only certain media sources are allowed. In that case, it's harder for people to discuss alternate viewpoints

No, the problem isn't when only certain media sources are allowed - honestly, the problem is when any media sources are allowed at all. Frankly, I think Amercians are as deceived by propaganda as the Chinese. Did we somehow forget in this thread that in western press, one can rarely find an article that isn't full of bullshit? Even if the reasons differ (western media do this for profit), the end result is the same.

> I think Amercians are as deceived by propaganda as the Chinese.

The best video on this topic is this fake North Korean mockumentary called "Propaganda" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tLK449NdmA

Just as the Western world see Asian regimes, here's a good mirror back at them.

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