Refugees Welcome • Hacker News Board

Re: Refugees Welcome

#181

Post by Freebo » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:19 PM UTC

jbssm wrote: post #130

Sincerely. I'm European, I'm from Euro zone. I walk in the streets in my country's capital at night and a see dozens of homeless hungry people just by walking a couple of Km. I just can't put my head around on why we should help the refugees before we help our own people. It just doesn't make any sense to me. We are giving millions to find houses for these refugees/migrants but we let our own live and die on the stre…

You have no choice, that's why. Some will indulge in military dictatorship style authoritarian fantasy solutions, some will opportunistically collect political dividends by selling this fantasies. Less developed European countries will even try their hands at some of this solutions. As ugly as it is this reality is there and is not going away, you have no choice but deal with it. Same with homelessness/extreme poverty btw, if it's that big where you live.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#182

Post by theworstshill » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:19 PM UTC

80% of these refugees should be accepted by the US, after all, if you give weaponry to various "free" syrian armies to cause havoc in the region, you should take responsibility to take care of the humanitarian disaster that results. The other 20% - UK, France and Germany, whoever dumped weapons on that region. Unpopular as it is - the middle east was doing much better under strong dictators. They had civilization going for thousands of years, and an attempt to change the regional order from the outside was a fatal mistake. Do the right thing and accept them, also don't forget build a couple of mosques near your house. At least in theory.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#183

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:27 PM UTC

ManFromUranus wrote: post #50

542458 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ad hominem. Rather than debating the merits of his suggestion, you're attacking his person. Furthermore, it's not unreasonable for people living in one country to have opinions on the policies of others, especially when it's something like taking in refugees which has strong influences on a global scale.

He's not attacking his person and it's not ad-hominem, he's saying the guy is basically a moral hazard, he is advocating for policies here that he won't have to suffer the consequences of.

> He's not attacking his person and it's not ad-hominem, he's saying the guy is basically a moral hazard, he is advocating for policies here that he won't have to suffer the consequences of.

That is ad hominem -- specifically, ad hominem circumstantial [0] -- and lies at the nexus between the genetic fallacy and appeal to motive.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Circumstantial

Re: Refugees Welcome

#184

Post by danmaz74 » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:29 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #141

danmaz74 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know there were any wars in South America, lately.

Most latin immigrants are economic refugees and those escaping local gangland violence rather than regime violence.

"Economic refugee"? This is some way to make a word lose its meaning. At this point any immigrant would become a refugee.

"A refugee is a person who is outside their home country because they have suffered (or feared) persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, or political opinion; because they are a member of a persecuted social category of persons; or because they are fleeing a war." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee

Re: Refugees Welcome

#185

Post by rmxt » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #173

rmxt wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's intellectually dishonest to presuppose that the only way to support destitute people is to personally let them into your home.

It's intellectually dishonest to suggest that people let the destitute into their own homes, but not for people to suggest the same for your home? It's easy to suggest how someone else's resources (time, money, and effort) should be handled but it's something else to do it yourself.

Yes, it is intellectually dishonest. The submission/posted website does suggest inviting refugees into one's own home, but you are the one who suggested that we should compare "fear of refugees on a national level" (ashleyp's post "But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country?") to "fear of letting a stranger into one's home" (your post "How many homeless people do you let crash at your place each night?") That's not a sound comparison. Nowhere has anyone stated that you (the impersonal you) should take refugees in, while I don't.

I am not suggesting that any individual be mandated to keep refugees (or anyone that they don't want) in their home. I am suggesting that pooled resources (taxes, which aren't "someone else's resources") go towards maximizing the benefit for the most number of people, inclusive of immigrants.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#186

Post by filoeleven » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:34 PM UTC

danmaz74 wrote: post #134

mcmalloc wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have our own continent to deal with. We already have hundreds of thousands of refugees coming to the US from central/south America every year. How many refugees are we supposed to accept anyway?

I didn't know there were any wars in South America, lately.

It's the War on Drugs, waged by America, and it's been going on for decades.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#187

Post by arrrg » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:35 PM UTC

powertower wrote: post #119

I really can't imagine anyone singing up for this except a few people. The recent waves or unchecked immigration has produced nothing but negative effects to the population, to such an extent that even recent immigrants themselves want the doors shut.

Racism and xenophobia together with paranoid isolationism all the way to straight up facism have been on the rise recently, together with actual violence against refugees, that much is certainly true, but you forget that there are many different people with many different views living in Europe. The outpouring of support (donations, volunteer work) has also been rising a lot.

In Germany I have also seen a marked shift in media coverage, away from crisis reporting towards a more honest approach portraying practical solutions and steps, including volunteer work. The main evening news in Germany, for example, has been airing a portraial of volunteers and their work and has consistently shown the donation account number for wire transfers.

You may be stuck in your own isolationist filter bubble. There is a whole world out there.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#188

Post by alan_cx » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

chki wrote: post #167

gozo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the people who oppose immigration tend to have very nice views on women, society, gays, religion etc? Maybe the problem is that some Germans don't respect others people freedom to think whatever they want.

I'm from Germany and do not oppose immigration and/or hosting refugees. I agree with you that especially some people opposing immigration have a twisted worldview on these topics. However, I think your last sentence is really problematic. People have the freedom to think what they want; but I think that the fundamental values of our society (freedom, democracy, equality) have to persist and I would not accept _anybod…

Perhaps the attacks on our fundamental values helps to prevent the silent majority taking them for granted? Im not talking violent terror type attacks, more the freedom to argue against them.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#189

Post by facepalm » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

dba7dba wrote: post #161

phaer wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A relevant part of "this group", if you talk about refugees from Syria, actually is Christian or secular/atheist. And many of them who are even Muslim actually share a bunch of questionable views of women and gays with conservative German Christians.

Did’t think there were enough Germans that are conservative and/or Christian anymore?

The value system is still very much influenced by Christianity, though.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#190

Post by facepalm » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 4:37 PM UTC

jbssm wrote: post #130

Sincerely. I'm European, I'm from Euro zone. I walk in the streets in my country's capital at night and a see dozens of homeless hungry people just by walking a couple of Km. I just can't put my head around on why we should help the refugees before we help our own people. It just doesn't make any sense to me. We are giving millions to find houses for these refugees/migrants but we let our own live and die on the stre…

We should help them because they are in need of help. It doesn't imply we have to support them indefinitely. We should help the homeless people, too, but the issue is not lack of money here.