Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#171

Post by Detrus » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:15 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #157

drexel wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe (book and author pretty much universally lauded by the strength training community) is also a great starting point. Beginners can often become overwhelmed by all the differing viewpoints and training methods presented to them when researching strength training but (besides avoiding injury by maintaining proper form and generally listening to your body to allow sufficient…

Looking for recommendations to add to my home gym, which currently only consists of an elliptical, mat, pull up bar, push up grips, a couple of exercise balls, 3 and 5lb barbells. What is safe to have at home? I want to avoid a resistance machine or similar, mostly because they look ghastly, and secondly seeing so many on CL leads to believe they are more hype than health.

You can get a weight set, bench and power rack. If you can't fit a rack, a lot can be done with a weight set, but certain moves aren't perfectly safe.

With just a weight set you can learn to power clean, do front squats with decent weight, zercher squats http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq1maZuQTgI jefferson squats/deadlifts. Can also do floor press or put some planks and books under yourself to get full range of motion.

What kind of weight set, power rack, bench to buy you can discuss in equipment forums like http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Spinlock bars suck though, low weight capacity and annoying to use.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#172

Post by micro_cam » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:17 PM UTC

bjterry wrote: post #124

tokenadult wrote: post #65

The most statistically astute comment posted here so far is the top-level comment by micro_cam https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5493772 pointing out that the study design here doesn't involve random assignment to strength training of any kind, but rather just observation of the study population over time. Sure, it's a good idea to be stronger rather than weaker. Moreover, it is plausible that exercises that tend…

From a Bayesian perspective, you should have had a high prior that lifting weights will cause an in increase your longevity because of several plausible mechanisms, and this study should slightly increase your posterior probability for that causation. Limiting your understanding of the causations of things only to those things which have had interventionist studies performed on them will have a very deleterious effec…

While this is an application of Bayes' theorem it isn't what a statistician would consider a good Bayesian analysis.

Nate Silver's book and xkcd have confused this issue but a bayesian does not generally make strong assumptions about a prior distribution.

A Bayesian can make strong assumptions about the hierarchical structure of probability distributions linking the paramaters/priors to the observations. Frequently she will then use uninformative prior distributions (like a really broad normall) on the paramaters of interest to avoid confirmation bias and combat overfitting when doing inference.

The debate between modern frequentists (like Larry Wassermann whose blog I linked) and bayesians (like Andrew Gelman) has more to do with weather analysis done with an assumed hierarchical model is a good idea. Everyone recognizes that bayes' theorem is valid and priors are a usable tool at this point.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#173

Post by myelin » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

john_b wrote: post #127

archon wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have weak joints or other physical constraints, machines can be a good place to start, as they will provide you some degree of support and help with your form. This is one of the main reasons I've stuck with the machines. I have a rotator cuff issue in my left arm that makes that arm very unstable. Lifting heavy things with that arm without any support makes me very nervous, even after doing PT exercises for…

Understandable. Without knowing the details of your issue, all I can say is that even light lifting with free weights will help develop your secondary/stabilizer muscles. You may or may not be able to make it a mainstay of your exercise program, but light to medium free weight exercise will improve your joint condition over time as well. If you do anything that feels iffy, just be sure to get a spotter. Pretty much a…

I second this -- if lifting heavy things makes you nervous, try lifting lighter things. There's a lot of small stabilizer muscles in your body that will be really weak if left unused, and lifting any free weight will help build them up.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#174

Post by ellyagg » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

micro_cam wrote: post #150

ellyagg wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are extremely good reasons, aside from this study, to think increased strength would improve life expectancy.

This is also true for endurance running, wine, coffee, beer, olive oil, eating lots of meat, not eating lots of meat etc.

No, the evidence for each of those is far more limited, ambiguous, and in one case contradictory. You would not advise your parents to maintain strength enough to stand because only prospective studies link standing strength to longevity?

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#175

Post by myelin » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:39 PM UTC

sofal wrote: post #147

kyllo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the absence of pre-existing knee issues I would wager that there's something wrong with your squat form. Do you squat below parallel? Do you sit back with your weight on your heels and spread your knees apart when squatting? Have you tried taking a video (from the side) of yourself barbell squatting and posting it to one of the major lifting forums for a "form check?" You can get a lot of good form/technique feedb…

I try to go down to parallel, and I do sit back on my heels and spread my knees apart. I have not done the video thing but I have researched it and had it critiqued by people at the gym and by physical therapists. The amount of time I've spent trying to refine my form and then have it do nothing for me is demoralizing. I understand that's the only suggestion people can come up with, and I understand why. I mean, I'm…

Are you warming up properly? I get the same stabbing pain in my elbows when I try to bench press anything over 115 lb, and an experienced powerlifter friend suggested it might be because I'm not adequately warming up my joints before I start -- it can be tight muscles pulling on tendons, or a bunch of things. I haven't had a chance to experiment, unfortunately, as I injured my wrist (not while lifting) and am waiting for that to heal, but...

To warm up for squats, try some or all of the following:

- using a rowing machine

- running for a little bit

- "high knee" jogging -- on the spot, lifting your knees up to your chest

- doing lots of bodyweight squats, then lots of squats with just the bar

- kettlebell swings (making sure to bend your knees and throw your butt back at the bottom of the swing)

- cycling (taking care with knee position if you get knee pain there -- I get knee pain cycling if I throw my knees out sideways; trying to lift them vertically works much better)

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#176

Post by bjterry » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

micro_cam wrote: post #172

bjterry wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a Bayesian perspective, you should have had a high prior that lifting weights will cause an in increase your longevity because of several plausible mechanisms, and this study should slightly increase your posterior probability for that causation. Limiting your understanding of the causations of things only to those things which have had interventionist studies performed on them will have a very deleterious effec…

While this is an application of Bayes' theorem it isn't what a statistician would consider a good Bayesian analysis. Nate Silver's book and xkcd have confused this issue but a bayesian does not generally make strong assumptions about a prior distribution. A Bayesian can make strong assumptions about the hierarchical structure of probability distributions linking the paramaters/priors to the observations. Frequently s…

I understand that in the context of professional applications of statistics, such as when writing research papers, professional statisticians often use uninformative priors. I'm not talking about professional statistics, and I'm not talking about the supposed debate between "frequentists" and "Bayesians." I'm talking about how an individual lives their life, sample size: one. The Earth doesn't have enough resources to answer every question of cause and effect that will come up in your life. For the vast majority of these questions, you will use a three pound mass of mostly fat to determine causation. Teaching that mass of fat that credible mechanisms of action and pre-existing information provides prior context for evaluating newly received information helps it not to discard valuable insight.

If you provided me research that showed, weakly, that using racial epithets did not affect a politicians chances of re-election (in relevant countries and scenarios, etc.), I would not discard my existing prior that it does, and I would be right to do so. But I would keep it in mind for the next round of evidence in the event I could be wrong.

In this case, no professional statistican is going to perform a Bayesian analysis to tell you the probability that making yourself stronger will cause a decrease in your all-cause mortality. No one is going to aggregate that information and tell YOU what YOU need to do, in this case as in so many others. But there is enough information that you should nonetheless, and this study, like it or not, does add to that information, not detract from it.

P.S.: I disagree with using uninformative priors except when they are warranted. This is how alternative medicine masquerades as "Evidence-based Medicine."

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#177

Post by LeeHunter » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

MaybiusStrip wrote: post #55

drexel wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe (book and author pretty much universally lauded by the strength training community) is also a great starting point. Beginners can often become overwhelmed by all the differing viewpoints and training methods presented to them when researching strength training but (besides avoiding injury by maintaining proper form and generally listening to your body to allow sufficient…

Good book for beginners but Mark has no shortage of critics and enemies in the strength community.

I'm not sure why you're being voted down. I've also seen some criticism, especially with respect to older (+40) people causing serious injury to their vertebra with the loads from correctly performed lifting. Lifting weights is not for every body, no matter how well you follow directions.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#178

Post by amirmc » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:47 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #165

Shivetya wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking for recommendations to add to my home gym, which currently only consists of an elliptical, mat, pull up bar, push up grips, a couple of exercise balls, 3 and 5lb barbells. What is safe to have at home? I want to avoid a resistance machine or similar, mostly because they look ghastly, and secondly seeing so many on CL leads to believe they are more hype than health.

Get what is called a "squat cage" (you can build one yourself if you don't like the options to purchase.) along with an Olympic bar (it is a bar weighted to 45 lbs. along with Olympic weights. You can do squats safely without a spotter by using a squat cage. Also, when you place a bench inside of the cage, you can use catch bars to safely bench press without a spotter (the safety bars will catch the bar at chest leve…

> "You can do squats safely without a spotter..."

Just to add that 'safely' in this context means that if you fail at a rep, the cage will catch the bar. Obviously it can't do anything to point out bad form as a spotter, or even a mirror, could.

I use the squat cage at the gym I go to and I wish they had more mirrors. A pair of angled ones so I can see a side-on view would be really helpful.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#179

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:48 PM UTC

myelin wrote: post #162

Shivetya wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking for recommendations to add to my home gym, which currently only consists of an elliptical, mat, pull up bar, push up grips, a couple of exercise balls, 3 and 5lb barbells. What is safe to have at home? I want to avoid a resistance machine or similar, mostly because they look ghastly, and secondly seeing so many on CL leads to believe they are more hype than health.

Kettlebells are compact, safe-ish, and pretty fun. I regularly work out with barbells now at the gym (roughly following Starting Strength), but before I started that, I spent a lot of time swinging a 35 lb kettlebell at home, which firmed up my back and shoulder muscles a lot. I recently added 20 lb and 60 lb kettlebells to the set, as 35 lb isn't a challenge to swing, but I can't yet consistently control it with one…

+1 for kettlebells. They are particularly great since they are really economical (mostly since you do not need many). I've been using a 35lb one for my morning workouts. The coverage you can get with a kettlebell in a short amount of time just can't be beat.

Re: Association between muscular strength and mortality in men (2008) [pdf]

#180

Post by analog » Thu, Apr 04, 2013, 9:50 PM UTC

micro_cam wrote: post #150

ellyagg wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are extremely good reasons, aside from this study, to think increased strength would improve life expectancy.

This is also true for endurance running, wine, coffee, beer, olive oil, eating lots of meat, not eating lots of meat etc.

There was a recent study which found that running only increased life expectancy if you were running 10-20miles (or km, memory hazy) per week. More than that and life expectancy decreased again.

So endurance running, which I would guess you would categorise as marathon+ will decrease your life expectancy.

Edit: /s/will/could Depending on how much running you already do.