Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife • Hacker News Board

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#171

Post by hnriot » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:10 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #161

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I seem to be the target of this comment I'll respond. Einstein was human. The purpose of using the phrases "womanizer" and "demanding jerk" was emotional -- we think of our heroes in pure terms. To associate them with negative judgmental phrases (such that we might easily use with anybody else in the world we meet) causes us distress. And from what I understand, Einstein chased women all his life, even during h…

Look around at all the exceptional people of our time. Jobs. Ellison. Every gifted, and I mean truly gifted, person I know or know about had a bizarre upbringing or background, and the vast majority of them are complete jerks. To rise above what is normal, it really helps if you are not given normal upbringing and stimuli early in life. And, when that is the case, you will likely step outside the bounds of what norma…

Apple did amazing things, it's somewhat unfair to give all the credit to Steve Jobs. NeXT didn't exactly do very well. There was something magical about the combination of people, from designers, to technologists to the supply chain optimization that made all the fancy ideas reality. It wasn't just Jobs, he steered the ship, he was its figurehead, but he, and his team did amazing things.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#172

Post by erichocean » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:11 PM UTC

unreal37 wrote: post #67

zoba wrote: post #56

Differently from most other comments, I didn't see this as Einstein being a jerk. I more feel compassion for him since, to me, this list is like an admission of his solitude. It must be quite lonely being so unique as Einstein. Most people have a hard enough time finding someone who they can relate to. When you're as publicly distinguished as he was I imagine finding someone to relate to must've felt entirely hopeles…

Now way off topic, but I don't think Steve Jobs is comparable to Einstein in the same way. Einstein needed long months of solitude to come up with his formulas, which must have been brutal on his family and friend relationships. Steve Jobs had other people execute his vision.

I'm not disagreeing, but I'll add that having "vision" itself is a form of execution.

Sometimes I think we give the impression that having "vision" is like some innate quality a person has, and not the result of intense effort over a long period of time, which is what it actually is.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#173

Post by waterlesscloud » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:14 PM UTC

rehack wrote: post #93

jacquesm wrote: post #87

Lots of judgments in this thread. Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. And keep in mind that we're looking at all this from almost a century later and that society has moved on quite a bit. Things that my grandparents would have considered perfectly a-ok would look ridiculous to you and me. Context is everything. In plenty of places in the world this would be an 'amicable arrangement' even today…

Agree with you. Otherwise, it was totally puzzling to me a simplistic, judgmental view calling him a jerk as a top comment. Don't know how many people have been married a long time here (i.e. > 10 years). Looking at the responses, it seems to me not that many. Thankfully, my marriage is several orders better than his was. But still I can perhaps see where the conditions are coming from. Just to take an example - C(3)…

It's a pretty safe bet that most people reading this know a couple living under terms a lot like these. Right now. Today.

The fact that we're often not aware of it doesn't change the reality.

When it comes to other people's relationships, the one thing you can be absolutely sure of is that you don't really understand them.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#174

Post by TianCaiBenBen » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:40 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #101

hgnb wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a sole breadwinner,married to a woman who belittles me in front of our children, who, despite having full-time domestic help, grudgingly provides me with meals, who swings between extreme emotional neediness and rejection for weeks at a time and who occasionally physically attacks me in rages (she was diagnosed with a psychological disorder, but treatment is blocked by her family), I wish I could produce a list li…

If you're the breadwinner, why don't you hire the domestic help to make meals for you and the kids, and incidentally help your wife if there's time left over?

Being the breadwinner does not mean his income is necessarily high enough to hire the domestic helpers.

And if the emotional issue involves, providing the domestic service will not guarantee that she will satisfy with what you did for her. She may complain about other things.

Some people, not necessary has mental issue, will never appreciate what they already have because they always desire to what they do not have right now. They never feel satisfaction.

no appreciation no satisfaction in those people's heart

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#175

Post by jiggy2011 » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:41 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #165

jiggy2011 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be inserting a lot of hypotheticals here. I don't remember the GGP saying anything about "chores will be distributed inversely proportional to % of household income provided". Since we have no reason to believe that the poster was rich enough to hire somebody to do all the chores and that neither him nor his spouse had a disability that would prevent them from performing chores we can assume that he simpl…

Of course I am. I don't like the "Even in a modern context". That statement papers over all the details that show why the statement is useless as a means to understand the modern context. My hypotheticals are examples of how that view cannot be applied to many modern contexts. You complain about hypotheticals. This whole tangent started with the hypothetical "if she would otherwise be idle" so it isn't like I started…

I really don't understand your point. Different households are always going to have different arrangements regards things like chores.

I don't think the original comment said anything along the lines of "here is an equation that everyone needs to apply in order to decide who does the dishes".

Just that if you have a situation where one person has significantly more free time than the other it wouldn't seem unreasonable to expect them to do more chores. Of course in real life there can always extra variables that complicate things. These things usually manifest themselves as domestic arguments, so are best discussed up front.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#176

Post by freework » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:44 PM UTC

unreal37 wrote: post #67

zoba wrote: post #56

Differently from most other comments, I didn't see this as Einstein being a jerk. I more feel compassion for him since, to me, this list is like an admission of his solitude. It must be quite lonely being so unique as Einstein. Most people have a hard enough time finding someone who they can relate to. When you're as publicly distinguished as he was I imagine finding someone to relate to must've felt entirely hopeles…

Now way off topic, but I don't think Steve Jobs is comparable to Einstein in the same way. Einstein needed long months of solitude to come up with his formulas, which must have been brutal on his family and friend relationships. Steve Jobs had other people execute his vision.

I think there are two types of 'geniuses'. One type is 'people geniuses'. These are people like Steve Jobs, Ronald Reagan, Sarah Palin, Billy Mays, etc. These people are geniuses in the way they were able to understand people and get the to do things (vote for them, buy their products). The other type of genius are the 'systems genius'. These are people like Tesla, Einstein, Newton, etc. The first group are not renown for their intelligence, the second group are not renown for their people skills.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#177

Post by freework » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:47 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #8

nthitz wrote: post #5

"They eventually divorced in 1919, having lived apart for five years." Surprise surprise...

Presumably they got divorced so that Albert would be able to marry his second wife that he had been in a relationship with for a while at that point.

This doesn't seem too out of character for Einstein when you think about it. Great scientists are't married to their ideas. As soon as a better theory comes along, it is reasonable for a scientist to abandon the previous theory for the newer one. Once he found a better wife, he dumped here for a better one. Great scientists don't just do science when they're in their laboratory. Great scientists rewire their entire brain to think of everything scientifically.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#178

Post by randomdata » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:47 PM UTC

klepra wrote: post #107

randomdata wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say, I didn't really come away with the "demanding jerk" impression at all. She wanted him to stay for the kids and continue to provide for the family. In return, he wanted some help around the house and to ensure emotional disconnect from the relationship that was already dead by this point. I expect couples today would form similar arrangements in the same situation.

So he was doing her a favour? Isn't he a father as well who should think for the best of his children too? So in other case he would just leave her with the children? Demanding 3 meals every day served or else is kind of disrespectful to someone you used to love.

That is how it reads. I certainly wasn't there to know what really went on, though I think we can assume these are the issues that caused the relationship breakdown in the first place. It wouldn't be very fair for her to live in the lap of luxury while he solely provides for the home and does all the housework on top, even if they had a prior love for each other.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#179

Post by mcgwiz » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 6:55 PM UTC

His goal was to create a sustainable relationship with her, and therefore he proposed a new set of expectations of her in consideration of his household cash flow. She consented to them; she wasn't forced to. This resembles a typical "live-in servant" relationship. The only strange part is that this falls out of a prior arrangement/agreement that was considered a "marriage" relationship. It's obviously no longer marriage in spirit, so why all the judgment of it that way?

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#180

Post by PeterisP » Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 8:09 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #126

jacquesm wrote: post #87

Lots of judgments in this thread. Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. And keep in mind that we're looking at all this from almost a century later and that society has moved on quite a bit. Things that my grandparents would have considered perfectly a-ok would look ridiculous to you and me. Context is everything. In plenty of places in the world this would be an 'amicable arrangement' even today…

Since I seem to be the target of this comment I'll respond. Einstein was human. The purpose of using the phrases "womanizer" and "demanding jerk" was emotional -- we think of our heroes in pure terms. To associate them with negative judgmental phrases (such that we might easily use with anybody else in the world we meet) causes us distress. And from what I understand, Einstein chased women all his life, even during h…

The situation isn't [described as] "How can such a great man speak like this to one who loves him?" - it's the situation where the love-marriage has ended, and they are staying together for the kids and for practical reasons only.

Read it as a "roommate agreement" of a sort.