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Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

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Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#81

Post by pfortuny »

saheel1511 wrote: post #28

I see lots of people commenting how Einstein was a jerk, etc. But somehow, I think that list (if it's real) just shows that he wanted order (and control?) in everything he did, which doesn't resonate as bad to me. We have no idea what kind of relationship he had with his wife, so I think it is unfair to judge him like that solely based on that list, more so, because his wife accepted it!

Oh yeah there are a lot of children accepting labour conditions in the East of Asia with which we get scandalized and the. this is ok: she accepted! come on....

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#82

Post by pfortuny »

romnempire wrote: post #7
davesmylie wrote: post #4

It's hard to reconcile the popular folk hero that is Einstein with a letter like this. I suspect a lot of this may come from us not being in a position to judge people from almost 100 years by the standards of today.

i mean, i don't see what's wrong with it, even by today's standards. she probably didn't work, so it's practically just a relaxed maid contract. i mean, hiring a woman you shared kids with solely as your maid would be weird by today's standards, but bigoted? don't see it.

Yeah there was a previous agreement called marriage before which puts that list in a very specific context: it is not a "contractor" relationship.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#83

Post by waterlesscloud »

peterarmstrong wrote: post #76
ekianjo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not question the popularity of Einstein, I just wonder why the term "hero" is applied to him in the parent post. Why would Einstein be considered a "hero" compared to other scientists ?

His hair. Seriously.

And his eyes.

And that one equation that's easy to remember and sort of understand vaguely.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#84

Post by jacquesm »

noonespecial wrote: post #60
aufreak3 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more complicated I think even in the case of Einstein. The period of strained relationship mentioned coincides with the period during which he was building up General Relativity (which he published in 1916). Given the intensity of work that would've been needed for that (all that gorgeous new math and physical insights!) with wrong turns to avoid in every move, it is well conceivable that his marriage was place…

I like to think of it backwards; If I knew that I had a contribution to make to humanity as great as Einstein's, would I willingly sacrifice my relationship with my family to make it?

That's an extremely difficult moral problem. It's akin to asking yourself if you would rather rescue the child on the left or the 3 people on the right when given the choice.

And then with various permutations for the child being yours or a stranger and/or the people on the right being your parents and / or strangers.

We are not well equipped to make such decisions.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#85

Post by jacquesm »

hgnb wrote: post #49
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #14

I had heard a while ago that Einstein was a womanizer. Looks like he was a demanding jerk as well. Just goes to show that there is usually a huge difference between what we think of historical figures and how they actually were. It's interesting how much we want our heroes to be pure and spotless -- unlike any other humans we encounter.

As a sole breadwinner,married to a woman who belittles me in front of our children, who, despite having full-time domestic help, grudgingly provides me with meals, who swings between extreme emotional neediness and rejection for weeks at a time and who occasionally physically attacks me in rages (she was diagnosed with a psychological disorder, but treatment is blocked by her family), I wish I could produce a list li…

That does not sound like a situation with a lot of potential for happy endings. I wish you lots of strength.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#86

Post by markokocic »

graeham wrote: post #61
aufreak3 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more complicated I think even in the case of Einstein. The period of strained relationship mentioned coincides with the period during which he was building up General Relativity (which he published in 1916). Given the intensity of work that would've been needed for that (all that gorgeous new math and physical insights!) with wrong turns to avoid in every move, it is well conceivable that his marriage was place…

I'm glad I searched before posting something similar. General Relatively is one of the greatest individual efforts in the history of science. I do think there is something noble about the self-isolation and dedication to his work that Einstein is reported to have had. While the list demonstrates somewhat anti-social behavior, espessially by today's standards, its unfortunate that the context is missing from the artic…

Whether it is an individual effort or joint effort that Einstein took all the credits fro later, it is still not 100% sure. See the page[1] about Mileva Marić.

It wouldn't be the first time in the history of science that one man was recognized for something just because he was louder in self promotion (see Tesla vs Edison).

I don't claim that Mileva Marić is of Tesla caliber, but treating woman that is as educated as her husband, and who also participated and contributed highly in his early work as a mere home service says a lot about person doing it.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mileva_Mari%C4%87#Role_in_physi...

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#87

Post by jacquesm »

Lots of judgments in this thread.

Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. And keep in mind that we're looking at all this from almost a century later and that society has moved on quite a bit. Things that my grandparents would have considered perfectly a-ok would look ridiculous to you and me. Context is everything.

In plenty of places in the world this would be an 'amicable arrangement' even today.

Mote, beam, eye etc.

Without knowing what went on before this it is very hard to judge the list. Maybe they reached a stage of armistice and decided to live like this for the sake of their kids. Whatever it was, it spells out tragedy rather than malice.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#88

Post by georgeorwell »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #70
georgeorwell wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you truly have the desire to change things and that you actually want help, here is some unsolicited advice: go into individual therapy for yourself and if possible try to start couple's therapy too. Look for long-term once-a-week therapy and don't be afraid to shop around for therapists because it's important that you like the person. If that seems too daunting, order The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by…

If mental illness is involved, you'll need more than just therapy. Treatment, patience, and...luck? Anyways, this isn't the place for relationship advice, and we are hardly qualified to give it.

When someone makes what I perceive as a thinly-veiled cry for help, I tend to ignore whatever rules there may be and do what I can to point them in the right direction towards getting some. The guy registered the account to write that.

You don't need to be qualified as a mental health professional to recommend psychotherapy. If a man here complained of symptoms that made it sound like he was having a heart attack, we'd all tell him to go see a doctor, and to me this is no different.

And although the wife may need a psychiatrist and medication (I assume this is what "treatment" means), I was writing to the husband here who in my non-professional opinion needs help of his own, simply by virtue of being in the relationship with her. And for this talk therapy may be enough. (Obviously patience and luck are nice.)

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#89

Post by andrewfelix »

chromic wrote: post #77
andrewfelix wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP is making a judgement based on the evidence he has, not on the evidence he doesn't. You on the other hand are attempting to counter his argument with no evidence at all. If you want to counter the argument, present contrary evidence.

He wanted to remain together just for the children. It's pretty safe to conclude he would not have done so if he had no children and that her presence is detrimental to him in some fashion. The terms listed are harsh, but they reflect his priorities quite well. Calling him a jerk is a bit out of line when he's prioritizing his children highly enough to try being a father when that isn't his most important goal.

His most important goal doesn't appear to have been his children, but rather his work.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#90

Post by wildranter »

To the individuals who are defending Einstein's behaviour towards his wife, I'm sorry to inform, you'll be ripped off of everything you have in a messy divorce. If you really think that's the right way to treat a person, please do a favor to humanity, marry your hand.

Now that aside, looks like Einstein was human after all. And one full of behavioural defects for that matter. He could've handled that in a much more civilized, and I dare to say, adult way by just having a honest conversation with his wife.

It's very easy to explain your goals, and why you need cooperation from your family to achieve them. If you can't, you have deeper problems than not being able to work properly.

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