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Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

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Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#171

Post by fragmede »

locknitpicker wrote: post #76
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick Google says it takes 4 years to get a license to be an HVAC technician in my state. I understand large installs at businesses are a different problem, and granted I've only ever installed a mini split, but that was hardly rocket science. And home installs are likely what most people are thinking of here. In Japan you can get minisplit's installed for $1k a unit, here you regularly find quotes over $10k. Somet…

> In Japan you can get minisplit's installed for $1k a unit, here you regularly find quotes over $10k. How much does the unit cost? What work does it take to install it? How large does it need to be to support your home? What are the energy needs of your typical home in Japan vs your home town? Those are the key factors, not how many years someone spends in tradeschool.

Why would those be dramatically different anywhere? It's the same few choices of mini-splits from the same few Japanese/whatever conglomerates across the world, with known cooling abilites (measured in the same units, BTUs) and with known energy consumption (kwh) (and power in watts). The hotter the place you live in, the more power it's gonna draw, and the more BTUs you'll need. Also the bigger the room, the more BTU you'll need.

Fujitsu and Mitsubishi both have popular units that are basically the same the whole world over, with minor regional changes. There really isn't that much variation though. There are obvious differences, a mini-split in a hot part of the world is going to be working harder than a mini-split in a cooler part of the world. Humidity will differ as well.

It's a large home appliance. You need a pair of strong people to drive over to the customer's house, bring it in their house, locate the right place to install it, unbox it, support it, wire/pipe it up correctly, and then give it power. The Big Mac index gives the difference in price between Japan in the US to be $5.79 vs $3.11 in JP (in 2025), and meanwhile $1k vs $10 is, well, 10x.

There's something at work here, but it's not due to variations in the difficulty of unboxing a large metal thing, drilling holes, running some tubing and then powering it on.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#172

Post by turtlebits »

s1gsegv wrote: post #71
turtlebits wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good mini splits aren't expensive. They're expensive because HVAC installers are fleecing US consumers. A majority of mini splits are made in China and are inexpensive and reliable because they're so pervasive in Asia. Most are rebadged Midea or Gree. You can get a decent mini split for <1.5K and install it yourself for $200 in tools.

If it was so lucrative, wouldn’t more people set up shop undercutting the current offerings? Why not become an HVAC installer and make millions, if you’re really able to make $15k profit on a job you can turn out in a day. The truth is probably more that the various money sinks in our society are starting to add up, things like healthcare, legal protection, licensure, compliance, rent (business or personal), even jus…

In Seattle, installing AC requires a refrigeration permit, which requires a refrigeration contractor license to pull and a licensed HVAC tech to install, which takes 4+ years of training.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#173

Post by nitwit005 »

mysterypie wrote: post #81

> With widespread AI adoption we plausibly could consume 10x or more of the service: Legal services, for example, plausibly fit this bill. A ten-fold productivity gain in legal services sounds simply awful for society. Imagine the time and money sink if everyone can sue you for every frivolous thing because AI can prepare and file the paperwork instantly without needing a lawyer. You'll need your own AI to defend aga…

There are a lot of fields where efficiency gains tend to be illusory. No one expects some new innovation in marketing to cause spending to plummet because of the efficiency gains. People have been genuinely innovating in marketing for a long while, and it's never happened. If anything, it seems to inspire more spending.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#174

Post by array_key_first »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #104
locknitpicker wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (...) a multitude of government programs that seek to eliminate extreme poverty, (...) consumer protection policies that make it genuinely expensive (...) I don't think this opinion holds a rational basis. Extreme poverty being a factor in low job demand is an argument for coercing people into performing certain tasks even though they are not economically viable just because it benefits you personally. This is not…

Regulation, for example occupational licensing of jobs, has become much more prevalent. 60 years ago, only 5% of the workforce was occupationally licensed, now it is 25%.* There is a bipartisan push to reduce occupational licensing, and recognize licenses across state lines. So not irrational, unsubstantiated, partisan, or ideological. * https://documents.ncsl.org/wwwncsl/Labor/NCSL_DOL_Report_05_...

The ideological part comes in when you immediately choose to stop your analysis here. This is known as "playing stupid".

Why has licensure increased in the past 60 years? What were the motivations?

And, if we remove some licensing, how can we be sure the motivation does not come back? What is the ROOT CAUSE?

It's entirely possible that we can get rid of the regulation, have a bunch of bad things happen, pay stupid amounts of money to fix those bad things, and then re-implement the regulation - thereby spending more money than if we just did nothing at all and kept things as they are.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#175

Post by metadope »

vel0city wrote: post #157
pas wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but you need to put the TV on the wall VESA mounts and installation are not cheap it's really an apples and or ciders comparison that said, now I realized I have a door with two pictures screwed to it, because we punched a hole through it more than a decade ago during a house party, and that specific door is out of production, and it's the door to the storage room so it was (and still is) the perfect solution :)

A TV wall mount can be had for $30, or even little less. They're extremely simple to install. All you need is a basic drill and 20 minutes.

Also, the hole in the wall will make it easier to locate the studs onto which you mount.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#176

Post by vel0city »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #161
vel0city wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Steam engines get more coal-efficient and that means there are more of them burning more coal. This misses the key part that actually makes it Jevons Paradox: the reduced cost of operating the machine opened up new industries and applications that massively grew which made overall usage increase. Something could get more efficient and still have the same number of units in the end. Washing machines have gotten more…

That would require perfectly inelastic demand. It's not a realistic assumption... in any context. Its absence certainly doesn't qualify as a "paradox". > Washing machines have gotten more efficient over time and yet it's not like we have tons more washing machines in the US. Do you have any numbers for this?

> Do you have any numbers for this?

Strange you'd really push back on this part. Do you now own multiple washing machines at home because they're more efficient? Seems like a pretty obvious take to me but ok let's go.

Looking at census statistics of durable goods it was in the 80s over 25 years ago.

https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/well-being/tables/1...

Nearly 20 years later it was still in the 80s.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/us-census-bureau-da...

Doesn't seem like there's much room to go up from here unless people are going to start owning multiple for some reason.

Meanwhile they became a lot more energy and water efficient.

> In 2000, 87% of all clothes washers consumed at least 600 kWh/yr. By 2019, 85.4% consumed fewer than 200 kWh/yr.

> The average annual unit energy consumption (UEC) of clothes washers decreased 83.9% between 2000 and 2019

https://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/statistics/aham/2019/wa...

For many things the initial or operating costs aren't what's constraining the market for the product. Clothes washers could be cut in half in cost tomorrow but it's not like I'm now rushing out to go buy twice as many. They could go to only require 5 Whr's to run a load but I'm still going to have about as much laundry. We've pretty much tapped out that market in developed countries, the only really new thing was all in one units becoming more economical to a few percent more of the market that didn't have the plumbing or space availability before.

If we were all too stupid to think of new uses for the steam engine we wouldn't have massively increased their usage by making them cheaper to build and cheaper to operate. We'd have just saved more money and used a bit less coal to do the same things we were doing before. If there isn't a market for the things that steam engine enabled, it doesn't end up becoming Jevons Paradox.

Looking at the Jevons Paradox with spreadsheets and accounting, it wasn't just that the spreadsheet made accounting work so much faster and easier, it's that then the effective output per cost per hour for an accountant dropped massively enabling people to hire part time accountants en masse that increased the demand for accountants. If businesses that never would have bothered for accountants didn't come in and effectively revolutionize what it meant to be an accountant all it would have done was making it cheaper for the same firms to do the same work with fewer people.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#177

Post by BizarroLand »

ceejayoz wrote: post #137
nunez wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the article: If you live in the United States today, and you accidentally knock a hole in your wall, it’s probably cheaper to buy a flatscreen TV and stick it in front of the hole, compared to hiring a handyman to fix your drywall. This also isn't true? It costs almost nothing to patch drywall. You can also do this yourself. Unless the point they're making is "TVs are so cheap, you can mount a TV inside of the…

If you have the stuff already. I had to buy the sanding pole, the joint compound, the putty knife, and the paint the other day. A TV would definitely have been cheaper.

More like $20.

In America, all of that other than the paint is available at the dollar tree. You're looking at ~$7 to fix the hole (spackle, mesh tape, trowel, sandpaper, paintbrush) and $12 to buy a pint can of matched paint, as long as the hole is smaller than your fist.

Larger you would need to add in a $20 patch panel of sheetrock, a razor knife or other sheetrock saw (could probably use the bread knife in a pinch) and a hammer and nails, so closer to $50 all in.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#178

Post by ceejayoz »

BizarroLand wrote: post #177
ceejayoz wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have the stuff already. I had to buy the sanding pole, the joint compound, the putty knife, and the paint the other day. A TV would definitely have been cheaper.

More like $20. In America, all of that other than the paint is available at the dollar tree. You're looking at ~$7 to fix the hole (spackle, mesh tape, trowel, sandpaper, paintbrush) and $12 to buy a pint can of matched paint, as long as the hole is smaller than your fist. Larger you would need to add in a $20 patch panel of sheetrock, a razor knife or other sheetrock saw (could probably use the bread knife in a pinc…

> so closer to $50 all in

https://www.amazon.com/toshiba-fire-tv-32-inch-class-v35-ser... is $75 right now. On Prime Day I saw a similar one for $35.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#179

Post by roenxi »

locknitpicker wrote: post #141
roenxi wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being required to dispose of air filters in a landfill is not the reason why you can't afford a repair. It is for someone - the market price is pretty much always going to be around the point where a small increase causes a noticeable drop-off in customers (otherwise the only sensible thing for the seller to do is charge more). If something causes even a relatively small increase in price will mean someone can't af…

> It is for someone - the market price is pretty much always going to be around the point where a small increase causes a noticeable drop-off in customers (otherwise the only sensible thing for the seller to do is charge more). I don't think this is realistic within the topic of air conditioning. No one is going to go without HVAC because of an hypothetical small increase in hypothetical trash handling fees, and defi…

That seems to be a classic no-argument-no-evidence assertion. And you really need an argument for this one, because otherwise it requires disbelieving in supply and demand curves. If you concede the price goes up, you have to concede that the seller thinks they're going to have less customers. Ie, that people will indeed choose not to buy the thing if the price goes up even a little bit. Otherwise they would already have raised the price because it would be free money for them to do that.

And it is the case that people don't tend to save, ie, they spend everything they earn. In that environment if a price changes, even a little bit, they're going to have to do without something. The maths is pretty easy. I mean maybe they're going to eat less food or whatever because they bought an air conditioning, but there will be people who are literally facing that choice and choose food over comfort. Someone actually has to be quite wealthy before the price of something going up a little bit doesn't force them to make changes to their lifestyle. For some people on the margins that change will be the difference between having and not having air conditioning.

If you want to make an argument that the cost to the seller is small enough that the price won't go up then sure, that might be so. In fact it does happen sometimes. But the people in the thread aren't complaining about small hypothetical fees, you bought that up yourself. They're complaining about regulations that cause the price of air conditioning to go up and chemotaxis had quite a long list that, practically, will cause that to happen.

Re: Why AC is cheap, but AC repair is a luxury

#180

Post by quickthrowman »

oceanplexian wrote: post #168
quickthrowman wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The HVAC technician working on your home accidentally discharges the propane based coolant while working on your cooling coil in the furnace. The mechanical room fills with flammable gas and then the pilot light for the water heater kicks on, igniting the gas and blowing up your house. It turns out the technician was working for a shady company that didn’t have liability insurance, now what? Before responding, please…

> The HVAC technician working on your home accidentally discharges the propane based coolant Millions of unskilled people work with and around propane on a daily basis. It's not even remotely a big deal if you have an IQ above room temperature.

It’s a possible scenario, google ‘exploding refrigerator’. [0]

Also, there wouldn’t be fire code [1] and insurance requirements for refrigerant detection systems in rooms containing mechanical equipment with refrigerant in them unless it was an actual danger. Building codes are written in blood, as they say.

[0] https://www.yahoo.com/news/blew-across-home-appliance-expert...

[1] https://codes.iccsafe.org/s/IFC2021P1/chapter-6-building-ser...

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