It's getting harder to die • Hacker News Board

Re: It's getting harder to die

#171

Post by LorenPechtel » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:24 PM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #129

Krssst wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess prolonging treatment is in the interest of for-profit hospitals as found in other countries France does the same but has nationalized healthcare, so it does not seem motivated by profits. It puts pressure on the healthcare system and only brings additional suffering. We could change that, but implementing assisted death needs careful consideration and defeating politically the small subset of people that th…

> but implementing assisted death needs careful consideration Yes. > and defeating politically the small subset of people that think life with extreme suffering is precious. You don't need to defeat us. All you need is a clear-cut agreement between the patient and the doctor, preferably in advance for those who are physically unable to decide at the end, similar to a DNI. Between the patient and the doctor, and possi…

You're assuming the person has enough function to commit suicide.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#172

Post by mantas » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:28 PM UTC

Liquix wrote: post #90

mistrial9 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the West I think alcohol is a massive factor, when talking about the moods of large numbers of people in those days. It is no accident that alcoholic drinking was banned outright for some time, despite the deep cultural roots.

booze has been around for thousands of years. it's not good for you but it's also not a new phenomenon driving suicide numbers up. IMHO it's a combination of low wages, high cost of living, and scrolling/gaming/streaming/porn addiction. we don't know how to talk about it yet but it's fucking people up. human brains were not ready for what the internet has become

Booze - yes. Culture around booze… not exactly. Serious drinking was reserved for festivals and generally frowned upon. Nowadays… it’s much more common and much more abused. And modern alcohol is getting stronger and stronger, same with other drugs.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#173

Post by LorenPechtel » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:36 PM UTC

delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #77

I'd like dying to be as easy as flicking a switch. Medically-assisted suicide ought to be available to anyone (not only of sound mind and not only with a terminal condition), and at any time. People ought to have the right to die, just like they have the right to water, food, and shelter. In most countries it is currently easier to take other people's lives than to take one's own. People ought to be able to step into…

Disagree. It should be a considered decision over time.

1) Is the patient of sound mind when the decision is made? (Not necessarily carried out. I have no problem with someone saying "kill me when my mind is gone.")

2) There should be a medical evaluation of whatever the problem is with an eye to what can be done to make life more palatable.

3) There should be a waiting period. (I would, however, say that if the person is no longer capable of confirming it that should count as confirmation.)

Suicide should only be for when one's remaining life is of negative value, not because of temporary bad things.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#174

Post by LorenPechtel » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:38 PM UTC

rrgok wrote: post #112

jezzamon wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile that with many people that attempted suicide due to some illness like depression, and then later very much we're glad they didn't die. "Only of sound mind" sounds difficult to measure. Related: Majority of gun deaths in the USA are suicides. In the gun control debate you might want to exclude those, right? But actually having ready access to a way to die increases the total number of suicides - i…

What if they change their mind again? Years later, they might have a fleeting thought: "I could have died back then." The point is, the mind changes constantly; it's its nature. What should one do? Personally, I'd rather avoid the rollercoaster of "I'm happy I didn't die" and "I should've died."

Which is why there should be a waiting period.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#175

Post by LorenPechtel » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:44 PM UTC

Liquix wrote: post #90

mistrial9 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the West I think alcohol is a massive factor, when talking about the moods of large numbers of people in those days. It is no accident that alcoholic drinking was banned outright for some time, despite the deep cultural roots.

booze has been around for thousands of years. it's not good for you but it's also not a new phenomenon driving suicide numbers up. IMHO it's a combination of low wages, high cost of living, and scrolling/gaming/streaming/porn addiction. we don't know how to talk about it yet but it's fucking people up. human brains were not ready for what the internet has become

If anything I suspect booze reduces suicide numbers. For some people it's an escape that makes life tolerable.

I'm thinking of a book whose title eludes me at present. It's by a doctor, talking about their ER experience. One of their frequent fliers--and one time he talked a bit about why. He had been a sniper in Afghanistan (Afghani, fighting the Russians), he drank to keep from killing himself because of the horrors he had experienced.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#176

Post by louwrentius » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:46 PM UTC

raffraffraff wrote: post #159

ksenzee wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be surprised if there exists a country where people never die like this. You would have to euthanize every single person who died of a long list of natural causes.

This is from personal experience, but there is a difference between letting someone take 2 weeks to starve or die of dehydration, and big-letters "euthanasia". Sometimes the people who work in palliative care are nuanced enough to ease you out when your final days come. Where I live, euthanasia is not legal. But when my sister was dying from cancer she directly told her palliative meds guy "I watched my uncle gasp fo…

This is mostly how it works for most people who die like this in my country where Euthanasia is legal.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#177

Post by asynchronous » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:50 PM UTC

dghlsakjg wrote: post #160

shawabawa3 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're at a party. You politely say goodbye to everyone and start heading for the exit. You are restrained and drugged. You are coerced into signing euthanasia papers and are swiftly killed.

In the real world, most people struggle to get permission to opt for medical assistance in dying. Nobody is getting coerced into suicide.

Canada would like a word with you

Re: It's getting harder to die

#178

Post by Zenzero » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:51 PM UTC

julianeon wrote: post #95

I think sometimes these articles don't pose the question all that well. The way I would ask it is: Imagine a pain scale of 1-10; pretend 10 is so high that you die from the pain. Is it worth living at a 7-8 at every moment continuously, to extend your life for 2 months? How about living at a 9 for just 2 more weeks? If you say "no" that just means you're not hooked up to a machine where that's your living experience…

Doctor here.

This is overly simplistic. There is little to debate about your example of living at a 7/8 for 2 months. What is more realistic is some hypothetical situation where the average patient has an expected survival of 6 to 18 months, with the hope that the 7/8 pain can be reduced to a 4/5, and with acknowledgement that some days may be a score of 5, some days may be a score of 9. Then what?

As a provider on the other side of it you witness two similar patients take two different paths. Perhaps the first patient lives 36 months with pain score averaging a 3. The family will often appreciate the intervention and effort. The other patient experiences a string of complications and dies after 2 weeks, living at a pain score of 10. Their family paints you as an evil torturer who should have never been listened to.

In fact you can see both types of opinions in this very thread.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#179

Post by toss1 » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:56 PM UTC

vundercind wrote: post #11

Recently watched someone close die over a couple days, after a long decline. The last 24 hours were monstrous to inflict on anyone. Torture. Evil. Hours and hours of faltering breathing, often restarting with what was plainly a panicked adrenaline-pumping response. It looked like they felt like they were about to drown every few minutes , hour, after hour, no relief. No IV fluids (terminal anyway, so no trying to kee…

So sorry to read of your loss, and the painful way it goes.

Sadly, this is just one of millions of descriptions of why the phrase "Slow as death" exists. Generally, life really does not want to give up, and the process is indeed terrible.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#180

Post by LorenPechtel » Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 7:56 PM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #147

delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stab > fricking Do you really have to be so violent in response? There exist supervised injection sites for narcotics. You bring the drugs, the healthcare workers give you clean syringes/needles/paraphernalia and help you with the injection. As a society we have decided that it is OK for people to potentially wreck their own lives with narcotics. Why not a similar concept for dying, where the end is only eternal ob…

> Do you really have to be so violent in response? I was trying to meet your request for an option that came as close as possible to just flicking a switch. > Step into a room, step inside a pod, press a button, pod closes, press another button to replace the air with nitrogen, done. I know of a friend of a friend who did this on his own. If you are of sufficient capacity to step into some place and press a button th…

No. The tank that can hold enough nitrogen (or helium or argon--same volume means the same pressure which means effectively the same weight) to do the job reliably is heavy. By the time your health is such that you would choose that path you likely can't lift it. I have seen my wife struggle with lifting that weight when it's in a form meant to be lifted. I've seen her fail when it wasn't as cooperative.