Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Every map of China is wrong

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 275 posts

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#171

Post by vitus »

Reason077 wrote: post #61
shikon7 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Chinese law forbids to convert their coordinates to WGS84, and using the Chinese coordinates for satellite data would give a discontinuity at the border. This is explained in the article.

Discontinuity at the border isn't a big issue compared to all locations in the country being wrong relative to the satellite view. If Google cared enough, I'm sure they could find a solution - since Google doesn't operate in China, they don't really have to respect Chinese laws. But Google doesn't operate in China so they don't care that much and are presumably happy to leave things the way they are. Also, keeping th…

> since Google doesn't operate in China, they don't really have to respect Chinese laws.

Google search may not operate in China, but that doesn't mean that we have no business or service presence in China. For instance, from 2017 up until 2022, Google Translate was available in-country [0].

[0] https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-china-social-...

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#172

Post by em500 »

keepamovin wrote: post #159
hyperman1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a country that literally describes anyone "non Chinese" as "outsider" The US describes non US people as aliens. Both when they're from Mexico or from Mars

In official parlance it does occur, tho there's a move away from that in some quarters. But in everyday parlance no, the US does not. But everyday Chinese describes "non Chinese" people as "outsiders". Hahaha! :) That's the point :)

Everyday Chinese describes foreigners as 外国人, literally "people from outside the country". Everything non-domestic is 外国 "outside the country". These seem to be pretty neutral terms to me.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#173

Post by computerfriend »

Reason077 wrote: post #61
shikon7 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Chinese law forbids to convert their coordinates to WGS84, and using the Chinese coordinates for satellite data would give a discontinuity at the border. This is explained in the article.

Discontinuity at the border isn't a big issue compared to all locations in the country being wrong relative to the satellite view. If Google cared enough, I'm sure they could find a solution - since Google doesn't operate in China, they don't really have to respect Chinese laws. But Google doesn't operate in China so they don't care that much and are presumably happy to leave things the way they are. Also, keeping th…

A significant portion of Google's Hong Kong office is dedicated to business development in China.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#174

Post by bdd8f1df777b »

Reason077 wrote: post #21
lolc wrote: post #6

So Openstreetmap must be illegal in China! And indeed it is: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/China Of course that doesn't stop people from mapping every bench in China https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=China#map=3/33.99...

Indeed, despite its apparent illegality, China seems to be fairly well-supported and well-mapped by OpenStreetMap, at least in major cities. And is entirely mapped in normal WGS-84 without the obfuscation problem. In any case, according to Wikipedia, open-source code is available to convert between WGS-84 and the obfuscated GJC-02 coordinates. Since technology seems to have caught up with it, is there any advantage (…

Can anyone point me to an open source implementation converting GJC-02 to WGS-84? The next time I debate with my Chinese peers on why this obfuscation is stupid, I need a reference.

And to answer your question, it's because anyone proposing to break away from the current model will be accused of being a Western agent.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#175

Post by jmprspret »

bdd8f1df777b wrote: post #174
Reason077 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, despite its apparent illegality, China seems to be fairly well-supported and well-mapped by OpenStreetMap, at least in major cities. And is entirely mapped in normal WGS-84 without the obfuscation problem. In any case, according to Wikipedia, open-source code is available to convert between WGS-84 and the obfuscated GJC-02 coordinates. Since technology seems to have caught up with it, is there any advantage (…

Can anyone point me to an open source implementation converting GJC-02 to WGS-84? The next time I debate with my Chinese peers on why this obfuscation is stupid, I need a reference. And to answer your question, it's because anyone proposing to break away from the current model will be accused of being a Western agent.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40220072

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#176

Post by RobotToaster »

Reason077 wrote: post #21
lolc wrote: post #6

So Openstreetmap must be illegal in China! And indeed it is: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/China Of course that doesn't stop people from mapping every bench in China https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=China#map=3/33.99...

Indeed, despite its apparent illegality, China seems to be fairly well-supported and well-mapped by OpenStreetMap, at least in major cities. And is entirely mapped in normal WGS-84 without the obfuscation problem. In any case, according to Wikipedia, open-source code is available to convert between WGS-84 and the obfuscated GJC-02 coordinates. Since technology seems to have caught up with it, is there any advantage (…

> is there any advantage (military or otherwise) for China to persist with obfuscation?

Probably just China suffering from the same problem most of the world has, boomers that don't really understand technology running the government.

> Is it just because of inertia that GJC-02 still exists?

That could also be part of the problem, the 14 companies that currently provide all mapping services in China, and everyone who uses their services, would have to convert to WGS-84. No doubt those companies will do everything they can to keep the law as it is.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#177

Post by MissTake »

Put Apple Maps also in the “seems to be fine” category as well.

I just compared two parts of Shanghai, and Apple seemingly had no issue overlaying the roads correctly where Google maps were offset.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#178

Post by luma »

Reason077 wrote: post #21
lolc wrote: post #6

So Openstreetmap must be illegal in China! And indeed it is: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/China Of course that doesn't stop people from mapping every bench in China https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=China#map=3/33.99...

Indeed, despite its apparent illegality, China seems to be fairly well-supported and well-mapped by OpenStreetMap, at least in major cities. And is entirely mapped in normal WGS-84 without the obfuscation problem. In any case, according to Wikipedia, open-source code is available to convert between WGS-84 and the obfuscated GJC-02 coordinates. Since technology seems to have caught up with it, is there any advantage (…

> is there any advantage (military or otherwise) for China to persist with obfuscation?

Standard issue Chinese protectionism, they do this with basically every industry. Create a problem and then only allow CCP-approved organizations to solve it.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#179

Post by RobotToaster »

N19PEDL2 wrote: post #12
lolc wrote: post #6

So Openstreetmap must be illegal in China! And indeed it is: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/China Of course that doesn't stop people from mapping every bench in China https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=China#map=3/33.99...

It seems that even taking geotagged photos is illegal in China, indeed some camera models automatically disable geotagging when inside China: https://ogleearth.com/2012/05/why-do-panasonic-leica-fujifil...

Never thought my camera being old enough to need a separate astrotracer GPS would have advantages.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#180

Post by cbeach »

amelius wrote: post #170
N19PEDL2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that even taking geotagged photos is illegal in China, indeed some camera models automatically disable geotagging when inside China: https://ogleearth.com/2012/05/why-do-panasonic-leica-fujifil...

The government can use facial recognition etc, yet the people can't even make maps. What a nightmare of a country is that.

Ironic, that socialist/communist regimes always win power on the idea of giving control and ownership of assets back to "the people"

The reality, of course, is that the people end up giving control and ownership to a one-party state.

The four remaining Marxist-Leninist states are China, Cuba, Laos and Vietnam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxi...)

In 2024, their Freedom Indices (out of 100) are:

China: 9

Cuba: 12

Laos: 13

Vietnam: 19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices

Post reply on HN