Live data from Hacker News

Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

kotaku.com

171–180 of 216 posts

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is knocking on someone's door an "incursion" or a "surprise attack"?

It's this definition of raid: "quickly and illicitly take something from (a place)" (versus the law enforcement version, where illicit is used instead to describe the goods which are taken by the police).

If a PI knocks on your door and says "I represent X, you have in your possession property of theirs, you can turn it over to me now or you will face legal action" and then you turn the thing over... that is not them illicitly taking the thing. That is you and them resolving a dispute out of court.

If the PI brings a bunch of big goons with guns and they imply that they'll kill you if you don't turn the thing over, then sure, that's a raid. But also you'd presumably call 911 immediately and file a police report stating that you were robbed.

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#172
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but they could have broken it down, assaulted them, then claimed that they were violent. They get away with that kind of crap all the time, because mostly, they do this to criminals, and are friends with the local police. Sometimes they get caught, usually for things like shooting a dog that was chained and far out of reach, or because someone had it on video, but these thugs are the kind of people who got r…

They get away with that kind of crap all the time That's a big claim, can you cite an example or two of Pinkerton kicking down doors an assaulting the residents?

You’re trying to assert that people making claims based on some knowledge are wrong because they don’t have every fact, while claiming that you have no facts whatsoever.

Do you not see how completely fucked up that is?

We don’t talk to each other this way here. We shouldn’t talk to each other this way at all. The “gotcha” structure of debate will be the death of public discourse and with it, democracy, and with that the rule of law. When we live in Idiocracy it will substantially be because of people trolling “prove it” because it gets them out of thinking about uncomfortable things.

But this response isn’t about you. Not even a little. It’s for the other people reading this tree of replies, for the next time someone is trying to shut down conversation.

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I ask them to leave, instead of heading to door, they are aggressive and surround me. What do you thing is going to happen? You better hope they are not actually aggressive? How are you getting out of this scenario other than being submissive or hoping they are "nice". There are so many Clint Eastwoods in this thread.

Do you expect some tactical masterplan? I have no idea what I would do. I would have like 1 second to decide. That is why it is very stupid idea, to threaten people at their property!

Ok no I am sorry. I agree.

I had the impression you were one of these guys that daydream about their (unrealistic) home defense plans.

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This scenario already happened with Jason Chen/Gizmodo and the iPhone 4G prototype that was left at a bar, and what happened is the cops raided his house and seized his stuff. You would think HN folks would at least remember that…

Not remotely the same thing, that was cops executing a search warrant signed by a judge. https://www.businessinsider.com/a-san-mateo-court-has-withdr...

You think WOTC couldn’t have found a friendly judge if the guy didn’t comply with their thugs? The judiciary in the US is just as corrupt as the police.

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American law enforcement would overwhelmingly "side" with the buyer here, by virtue solely of siding with the status quo. The moment they said "contract," Deputy Notmyjob will hold up a hand and say, "Sounds like a civil matter. Mr. Smith has advised you not to trespass on his property. Small claims office is at 1234 Fuckoff Street downtown. We'll be leaving now, and you will too, unless you'd like to take a trip to…

> American law enforcement would overwhelmingly "side" with the buyer here Not if the private security are off-duty or former cops with a strong relationship with local departments.

Which would be great. Now we're rapidly travelling down the hundreds of thousands of dollars lawsuit path. Anything the cops do, apart from siding with the land owner (never mind buyer), would have an extremely high chance of being a constitutional violation.

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#177
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of the castle doctrine [1]? It's resulted in some really crazy (and imho horrible) situations where private citizens are allowed to use deadly force and literally murder people in cold blood. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

No actually. Thats not what the castle doctine does. It does not allow you to just shoot someone, who is standing outside your door. If they broke into your house, then yes it might apply. But it absolutely does not allow you to just shoot someone, who knocked on your door.

This has happened - of course, this is Florida, but still: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/03/why-george-zimme...

This guy wasn't even on his porch. Stand your ground laws essentially allow gun owners to claim they were frightened for their lives so that becomes "their castle". Wouldn't be very hard to repurpose this kind of weaponized law to actually defend your household.

btw - castle doctrine was intended to apply within property lines. If someone is on your doorstep, they are likely already clearly on your property.

All of this is theoretical but honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this is used for exactly what you said it shouldn't allow.

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American law enforcement would overwhelmingly "side" with the buyer here Not if the private security are off-duty or former cops with a strong relationship with local departments.

Which would be great. Now we're rapidly travelling down the hundreds of thousands of dollars lawsuit path. Anything the cops do, apart from siding with the land owner (never mind buyer), would have an extremely high chance of being a constitutional violation.

lol

The courts will decide there's "no clearly established law".

https://www.theusconstitution.org/litigation/micah-jessop-br...

> After local police officers searched the homes and business of Micah Jessop and Brittan Ashjian, more than $100,000 in cash and $125,000 in rare coins went missing. Jessop and Ashjian sued the officers and the City of Fresno under 42 U.S.C. § 1983, a statute that authorizes damages actions against state and local officials for constitutional violations, arguing that the officers’ alleged theft violated their Fourth Amendment right to be free from “unreasonable searches and seizures.” The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that under the doctrine of qualified immunity the officers cannot be sued because, according to the court, it is not “clearly established” that this type of theft violates the Fourth Amendment.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/05/30/police-geo...

> For instance, last November the 6th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals held that Tennessee cops who allowed their police dog to bite a surrendered suspect did not violate clearly established law. There, the victim cited a case where the same court earlier held that it was unconstitutional for officers to sic their dog on a suspect who had surrendered by lying on the ground with his hands to the side. That was not sufficient, the court reasoned, because the victim had not surrendered by lying down: He had surrendered by sitting on the ground and raising his hands.

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is why my standing policy is to never answer the door unless Sure. "Standing policy" implies that you've spent a bunch of time thinking it out, presumably thinking about the corner cases (police are there and they aren't leaving), and also concluding that you're willing to forgo answering the door in times it would have been beneficial. That's all work and preparation that you're taking for granted, that frank…

>> the corner cases (police are there and they aren't leaving), That would imply they have a warrant which most likely means they have already busted down the door negating my policy in the first place. >>and also concluding that you're willing to forgo answering the door in times it would have been beneficial Such as? I have been doing this avoidance for 20 years in multiple locations, never been an issue so far. >>…

> It is clear you just anti-gun and likely anti-self defense in general and instead believes only the state should have that power

Bad guess. I'm a gun owner who believes in the natural right of self defense. But guns are not a strong hobby, and taking a basic gun class is actually what made me realize I am not the type of person who wants to carry. It's just not how I'm wired. (I will, of course, do so if I have to because society devolves to that point).

> soo much disinformation spread

Walker was sleeping on a couch. Police executed a 2nd-amendment-incompatible "no knock" warrant, got pissy when Walker defended himself, and so rather than retreating they retaliated by using the place as a shooting gallery. What do I have wrong here?

The relevance to the situation is that Walker's self defense was exactly what the law indicates he should have done to preserve his rights, in light of rulings that have found the police have no duty to defend and as such that responsibility falls entirely on the individual.

> That would imply [the police] have a warrant which most likely means they have already busted down the door negating my policy in the first place.

The police can have an arrest warrant, and not just immediately bust down your door. This might be one of the reasons you'd want to preemptively answer your door, rather than getting your home unnecessarily damaged. Or maybe they're coming to notify you about a family member who was hurt. Or maybe someone is looking for a lost dog and you want to be a good neighbor. Or maybe you were about to go out and do some errands or yard work and don't want to wait 10 minutes for the Jehovah’s Witnesses to give up. Or maybe girl scout cookies.

> There is no indication that the persons were armed

I took a guess at the likely equipment of private security that would be part of their imposing image, to make an example of something that would be pretty clear cut and relatively easy to enforce.

> Nor am I clear how your proposes law would even be enforced

You make a police report, give them video evidence of someone coming to your house uninvited and armed, and they get a $500 fine or whatever. It doesn't turn into a high stakes criminal trial extravaganza because it's a misdemeanor that applies before escalation, rather than a capital crime xor completely innocent based on minute details after an escalation.

But yes one could certainly write a better tailored law to criminalize extortion by private "security" forces than the simplistic bit I threw out as an example. My point wasn't a fully fledged legal proposal, but to point out the difference between technically having rights that you can protect if you do everything exactly right, and proactive enforcement against attempts to strip you of your rights through implied coercion.

The fundamentalist "just do everything right" approach doesn't scale. It's like C and manual memory management. Sure, it's fine if you write bug free code (ie you're DJB). But moving most of the drudgery to a compiler frees you up to do more worthwhile higher level things.

Re: Wizards of the Coast Raids YouTuber’s House to Take Back Magic Cards

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a good description of what is , but not what ought to be . It's very easy to discuss this after the fact, detached from the situation with a calm head, and be confident that this victim would have been legally in the clear. But rational analysis is sorely absent when an armed gang shows up at your door demanding something and threatening more violence if you don't comply. The legal dynamic in the US has basic…

> Whereas what really needs to happen is for various aggressor parties to be legally restrained from using coercion to begin with. Agreed, but good luck. The police, the "actual" enforcement arm of the legal system, can pick you up without evidence, steal your money, lie to you until you're tricked into confessing to something you didn't do, and call it a successful mission. The legal system is not intended to protec…

The "intent" of the legal system was to enable distributed dispensing of the King's justice, at least from what I understand. In the modern day and age, we can say that there are many types of mal-intents behind various laws, but the legal system itself is what we make it. And describing a problem is the first step towards fixing it.
Post reply on HN