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Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

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Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#171
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best example I know of for new magnet chemistry without rare earths is Niron Magnetics: https://www.nironmagnetics.com/ https://hackaday.com/2022/09/01/iron-nitrides-powerful-magne... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34359383

> Our product roadmap climbs the ladder of performance allowing us to replace NdFeB magnets initially on the basis of price performance and ultimately on the basis of absolute performance So it sounds like they haven't yet figured out how to make a magnet as strong as a regular NeFeB magnet, but it is theoretically possible to do so. Magnet strength is one of the key inputs for motor torque per unit mass, and it seem…

> it seems unlikely Tesla would want to trade off much of either mass or torque for price.

Tesla routinely make this tradeoff -- e.g. the Standard Range M3 uses LFP (litium iron phosphate) batteries that are cheaper but less energy dense compared the to Long Range M3 that uses a more nickel-based lithium battery that's more performant.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civilian casualty is the lowest-common-denominator. Right now, China is under scrutiny for current human rights abuses and a potential domestic ethnic-cleansing a-la third Reich. That's a slightly different situation than indiscriminate civilian casualty.

You don't need to defend the government. In the sham-democracy, you have as little control over their actions as the government of china

Trust me, I don't. I have close to 6,000 comments on this site, many attesting to my hatred of the United States and the dysfunction of it's government.

That being said, nobody is fooled by the ad-reductio distraction of "both governments do bad things". China is now (since Aug. '22) accused of serious human rights violations by the United Nations for their treatment of the Uighur population. Someone approved of it, and it's very likely the the current regime is aware of it. None of this stuff is up for debate, or diluted when you mention the US' own failings. It's just extremely embarrassing for China, who wants to be treated like a respected Western superpower, but can't own up to it's mistakes when they do slip up. They won't acknowledge Tiananmen Square, they won't let people debate Hong Kong, they won't deny the Uighur extermination, and now they're refusing to let the global stage investigate the origin site of the worst pandemic in a century. You can see why people would draw their own conclusions here.

Even if all of this was propaganda vs propaganda (which it isn't, but I'll entertain in good faith), China is still losing. Despite their authoritarian grasp on information, they can't control the global perception of them. It's the ultimate insecurity, and incompatible with the global ideals of information freedom. Again, even if you are right, and western affairs are controlled by a mysterious free-speech cabal/shadow-government, I don't see how it changes China's disadvantage on the global stage. It took a fraction of the world's military forces to repel Russia from Ukraine, preventing a sea-based invasion of Taiwan is probably easier than the average NATO wargaming exercise. And then China would be similarly disgraced, and forced to rectify their impulsive actions with a world that doesn't want to be a part of them. If they want to carry out their reunification plan, it would destroy them.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't want alluminium wires in your car Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Existing copper wires would be a disaster if cars ran on a 3V system. Aluminum at 48V will be fine, as long as it’s sized appropriately the same way copper is today.

> Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Thats not the argument, you can do that now with copper cables. Aluminium is a good conductor, but it is reactive, brittle and not as malleable as copper. also, copper has almost half the resistance per meter than aluminium. So even for solid bus bars, it doesn't make that much sense, unless you have structural bus bars.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But battery research is ongoing from a century at this point, we can't possibly think that Tesla just came out of nowhere and thought a solution nobody considered before such as using less rare elements. It is most certainly a trade off and I'm not seeing where the cons are mentioned. Moreover, lithium-ion batteries have by far the most efficienty energy density, so what is tesla getting rid of, most certainly not li…

Every sentence of this is wrong. Disclaimer: I am no fanboy of Tesla; I think Tesla's lunch will be eaten by BYD, either alone or together with other Chinese EV manufacturers, in part because Tesla has been resting on its laurels for so long (still selling the model S!); but facts are facts. > But battery research is ongoing from a century... Tesla's claim is about motors, not batteries. Tesla has implemented solutio…

What’s wrong with the model S?

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#175
post #99
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any reason that Norway’s car brand popularity is a big deal in the larger scheme of things?

It has the highest EV penetration in the world. Nearly every single new car sold is an EV. It's therefore a great indicator about how various EVs will fare on a greater scale, perhaps.

Norway started buying EVs when Tesla was the only game in town. Of course they have a lot of Teslas. It seems like a bad idea to expect that experience to generalize now that there are more options.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Thats not the argument, you can do that now with copper cables. Aluminium is a good conductor, but it is reactive, brittle and not as malleable as copper. also, copper has almost half the resistance per meter than aluminium. So even for solid bus bars, it doesn't make that much sense, unless you have structural bus bars.

Most car wiring harnesses are affixed to structural members and don’t need to flex. And twice the resistance doesn’t matter. So you go one gauge bigger. If the material is cheaper, more available, and suitable, that’s fine. We don’t insist on gold wires because they’re “better” than copper. It’s all tradeoffs. I don’t see a reason to be philosophically opposed to aluminum other than “it’s possible to do it wrong”, wh…

> cheaper, more available, and suitable

Indeed, but automotive wiring is subject to intense and persistent vibration and heat cycles. so all those ties become stress points for fatigue to cluster around.

I'm not saying its never a good idea to use an aluminium wire loom, but I'm struggling to find a situation where its required

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most car wiring harnesses are affixed to structural members and don’t need to flex. And twice the resistance doesn’t matter. So you go one gauge bigger. If the material is cheaper, more available, and suitable, that’s fine. We don’t insist on gold wires because they’re “better” than copper. It’s all tradeoffs. I don’t see a reason to be philosophically opposed to aluminum other than “it’s possible to do it wrong”, wh…

> cheaper, more available, and suitable Indeed, but automotive wiring is subject to intense and persistent vibration and heat cycles. so all those ties become stress points for fatigue to cluster around. I'm not saying its never a good idea to use an aluminium wire loom, but I'm struggling to find a situation where its required

It's not really the flexible thing you picture with the word "loom."

The place Tesla used this was for fixed rigid bus bars, notably the "cable" from the charge port to the battery.[0]

Previously they used traditional stranded copper. Now it's a solid aluminum conductor, wrapped in insulation and protected by an outer aluminum tube.

These are thick high voltage conductors. I'm sure Tesla did their homework on flex and fatigue.

As for resistance, this is why I mentioned conductivity-to-weight as being the critical metric. Copper is over 3x as dense, at 9.0 g/cm³ vs 2.7 g/cm³ for aluminum. It doesn't hurt that aluminum is cheaper and more abundant.

[0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hY9cxyvUu6I&t=1115s

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#178
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airplanes flying for decades are made of aluminum.

Their cables?

Tesla isn't using aluminum "cables" either. They use the material for large rigid bus bars.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014013

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of this stuff boils down to Elon Musk being absolutely ruthlessly uncompromising in his hiring and technology vision and management. His management style may not be agreeable to people and he gets criticized for that a lot obviously. But the technical vision that he drives at Tesla, SpaceX, and his other companies are undeniable what makes these companies so valuable. And it's exactly where his competit…

I notice there is a company missing from this list where Musk has been stepping on rakes left, right & center.

Do you mean Twitter? Not his finest moment in terms of management style, I agree. But in terms of taking that absolute train wreck of a company and turning it around from being deeply unprofitable (literally burning billions) to where it at least stands a chance of surviving as a company with a realistic shot of being profitable in the space of a few months is maybe something Elon Musk doesn't get a lot of credit for. Was it ugly? Unorthodox? Obnoxious? Yes to all of that and then some. But maybe not as ugly as a full blown bankruptcy would have been. And also effective even maybe.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#180
post #167
post #67

Love Tesla or hate Tesla. Their engineering chops are unmatched. Be it hardware, software or manufacturing engineering.

You almost made me spill my coffee. Tesla still CANNOT get their auto wipers to work correctly. This has been a feature on a Mazda 3 I had in 2007 and it worked flawlessly.

Fwiw my wipers work fine. There were a couple patches where “auto” was a bit eager to engage but that’s been solved for years.

There are also 3 “non-auto” settings that work just like any other car.

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