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A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

nytimes.com

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Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#171

Post by noisy_boy »

laxmin wrote: post #74

Unfortunately, the world is such that losing a job is the least pain and torture. In India, a Lady, Nupur Sharma merely quote the Hadith about Mohammad's marriage to Aisha and she had to go underground. Many people lost their lives. The Islamists call for 'San Tan se Juda' - Separation of the Head from the Body. The Islamic world needs a renaissance.

> In India, a Lady, Nupur Sharma merely quote the Hadith about Mohammad's marriage to Aisha and she had to go underground.

This is not equivalent to the case in question (to be clear about my stand, I think the firing of the lecturer was completely wrong). However, there are few things to consider in Nupur Sharma case:

1. Nupur Sharma is not a random Lady, she was the spokesperson of the ruling party BJP. As part of the ruling party, she had the responsibility of acting as is appropriate for a national-level party member. More so as being the spokesperson, her views could be seen as the views of the party. See point #3 on why this is relevant.

2. Her comments were not part of some art history or philosophical discussion. By her own admittance, she couldn't accept the insulting of Hindu god Shiva and retaliated by making comments about prophet Mohammad.

3. Her comments were not made within the confines of a classroom where free academic discussion is paramount; she went on three national TV channels and basically tried to make the same comments deliberately knowing well that in a deeply religious country like India, such actions have far reaching consequences. My personal view is that one should be free to insult any god, Hindu or Muslim or any other religion; however, practicality demands that care should be exercised by members of political parties on such public platforms (if she was a Muslim leader who insulted a Hindu god, the point would still stand i.e. her behavior was irresponsible).

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#172

Post by hairofadog »

kergonath wrote: post #56

The fact that people describing themselves as progressive are fighting to forbid blasphemy has got to be the worst “freedom is slavery” newspeak in the last decade. When did it become acceptable for one sect to dictate what we are allowed to talk about? They are the enthusiastic useful idiots for dark age theocrats, the exact translation of our despicable white nationalists and Christian supremacists.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I would describe myself as progressive, and I think the actions of the university —letting the professor go, if described accurately in the article — were clearly ludicrous and indefensible, and I can’t think of a single one of my friends or acquaintances who would think otherwise.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#173

Post by mardifoufs »

KyeRussell wrote: post #120
wonderwonder wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If you speak ill of "white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men" will you lose your job? Will you lose your job in liberal universities if you speak ill of Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, African Americans? In case of perceived bias, I'm a swing voting (95% Dem) Jew.

Modern progressivism does distinguish instances of “punching down”, yes. That’s no secret and is not intended to be. That’s not the point, though. Turning this into a “what about the white men!” whinge is blatantly misrepresenting this scenario as the result of “modern progressivism” when it’s actually something else. I believe that you’re not going to find many proponents of the sort of progressivism that the “white…

Wouldn't offending muslims be punching down then?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#174

Post by ModernMech »

pvaldes wrote: post #153

I wonder. Why are this classes still opened to muslim students? Seriously. Why?. What's the point of all this drama? Teachers risk entire careers. Risk decades of hard study and even their lives, to show students concepts like free speech and different points of view. Students don't seem to appreciate the effort. Each single time, somebody will feel justified to use this situation to feel outraged and punish the teac…

> I wonder. Why are this classes still opened to muslim students?

Because this is an exaggeration:

> Students don't seem to appreciate the effort. Each single time, somebody will feel justified to use this situation to feel outraged and punish the teacher.

I don't know what causes you to feel this way, but it's just not true. That some students cause outrage at one small school, that doesn't mean students or Muslims writ large feel the same, or that "every single time" Muhammad is depicted something like this happens. Frankly it seems like the opposite it true; the last time this was controversy in the news that I can remember were the terrorist attacks a decade ago. If it's true that Muslim students will use this to punish teachers and feel outraged, why doesn't it happen more often?

Really all that seems to be happening here is that a student got more upset than they should have, the school overreacted more than they should have, and now the anti-woke internet mobs (because the reactionaries are just as bad as the activists at this point) are overacting as well.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#175

Post by qsort »

ssth wrote: post #156
Sakos wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have zero tolerance for people who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence. This goes for Islam just as much for Christianity. I don't hear much about Christians beheading people over insulting Jesus in Europe though.

> I have zero tolerance for people who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence. Those who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence are extremely minority, majority of muslims do not do those things. And "bad muslims" always in those media or news because who would read articles about "nice muslim". So you should know what I mean.…

> And insulting any religions is not acceptable and deserve to be punished.

Why?

I believe all religions are a bunch of bullshit. Almost all of them regard this belief as a mortal insult. Should I get punished for that?

The only tenable way to treat religions in a liberal democracy is like any other belief. You get full freedom to practice any one you want, or none of them, or even more than one at the same time for all I care, but you don't get any special status or moral authority.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#176

Post by pnf »

anthk wrote: post #154
pnf wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. It is interesting it is not more given the history and proximity to Morocco. It is interesting it is not less given the expulsions and forced conversions.

Morocco and Andalucia are pretty close, you can spot Morocco´s coast from some places. Also, there is the issue of Ceuta and Melilla.

Yes, only a stone's throw. Why doesn't Spain have the ~6% Muslim population of France or Germany?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#177

Post by pvaldes »

ModernMech wrote: post #174
pvaldes wrote: post #153

I wonder. Why are this classes still opened to muslim students? Seriously. Why?. What's the point of all this drama? Teachers risk entire careers. Risk decades of hard study and even their lives, to show students concepts like free speech and different points of view. Students don't seem to appreciate the effort. Each single time, somebody will feel justified to use this situation to feel outraged and punish the teac…

> I wonder. Why are this classes still opened to muslim students? Because this is an exaggeration: > Students don't seem to appreciate the effort. Each single time, somebody will feel justified to use this situation to feel outraged and punish the teacher. I don't know what causes you to feel this way, but it's just not true. That some students cause outrage at one small school, that doesn't mean students or Muslims…

> Because this is an exaggeration

Not. Is a risk, and risks should be addressed.

> the last time this was controversy in the news that I can remember were the terrorist attacks a decade ago

2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Samuel_Paty

Universities and schools should meet over a common protocol for damage control and stop the problem for good. This lectures are like throwing blood in a shark pool; any extremist in a radius of a thousand miles around will be invoked in holy duty mode to "save the students souls".

And the risk/benefits ratio is just mew. Is a losing situation for everybody.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#178

Post by pnf »

ModernMech wrote: post #170
pnf wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absent a radical retrenchment of reactionary-style teaching institutions, I don't see how "getting tenure" is a viable strategy going forward. The institutions have radically shifted their construction to be administration/student-centered rather than professor-centered. It may be that tenure as an institution could not survive the massive growth of the university system. Like any guild, membership growth must be lim…

> I don't see how "getting tenure" is a viable strategy going forward. It's not, which is why many schools are moving away from tenured faculty and more toward contract instructors. They're paid like regular faculty (not pennies like adjuncts) but aren't on a tenure track. 3-5 year contracts give better job security than a typical job, but not a guaranteed job for life.

3-5 year contracts are maybe better than employment at will for faculty but they are of a kind with deleveraging the profession vis a vis the institution. The institutional character has shifted to big-E Education. Like big-H Health it is a rationalization of the industry that disempowers the "productive" professionals in favor of the "managerial" professionals (administrators) who manage the economic relationships (means of production/distribution) of the whole shebang. Maybe the death of tenure will augur a new age of unionization for faculty (I have my doubts).

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#179

Post by yucky »

KyeRussell wrote: post #120
wonderwonder wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If you speak ill of "white people, Christianity, and non transexual heterosexual men" will you lose your job? Will you lose your job in liberal universities if you speak ill of Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, African Americans? In case of perceived bias, I'm a swing voting (95% Dem) Jew.

Modern progressivism does distinguish instances of “punching down”, yes. That’s no secret and is not intended to be. That’s not the point, though. Turning this into a “what about the white men!” whinge is blatantly misrepresenting this scenario as the result of “modern progressivism” when it’s actually something else. I believe that you’re not going to find many proponents of the sort of progressivism that the “white…

   > Modern progressivism does distinguish instances of “punching down”
And many would argue the concept of this being "punching down" requires at least a subconscious belief that those groups are somehow beneath other groups in the first place. Furthermore, why support punching at all?

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#180

Post by Sakos »

ssth wrote: post #156
Sakos wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have zero tolerance for people who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence. This goes for Islam just as much for Christianity. I don't hear much about Christians beheading people over insulting Jesus in Europe though.

> I have zero tolerance for people who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence. Those who push their religious views on others and also use their religion to justify violence are extremely minority, majority of muslims do not do those things. And "bad muslims" always in those media or news because who would read articles about "nice muslim". So you should know what I mean.…

This is insanity. This is like saying insulting Republicans or Democrats should be punishable. There's nothing particularly special about religion that should give it protection from criticism or "disrespect" or being insulted (also, who decides what is an insult? the religious fruitcakes? naw dawg, fucking no). Anything else is such authoritarian insanity that it feels like you're arguing in bad faith, and it just gives religious extremists the protection they need to force their ass-backwards views on everybody else while literally murdering people who they perceive as having "insulted" them or their religion.

If you want to protect "good Muslims", you need to accept liberal values that include being able to "insult" a religion without fear of violent attack.

> As for beheading punishment though, I do not have enough knowledge to comment about it.

What the fuck does this even mean? You think there's some conceivable situation where it's justified to react to "being insulted" with a beheading? You can fuck right off with the rest of the extremists.

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