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Just don’t

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Re: Just don’t

#171

Post by yboris »

blowski wrote: post #63
unsupp0rted wrote: post #7

I get a lot more mileage out of "have you tried..." than "why don't you just...". As a recent example, I wrote a system that auto-generates PDF packing slips from an order form, to send to a warehouse for picking and packing. Yesterday a client told me to "just make it landscape" while I was explaining why "just making it landscape" won't solve the problem of giving the warehouse whitespace to pencil stuff in, becaus…

Marriage has taught me to go even further than that. I now ask "are you telling me to get it off your chest, or you want help solving it?". If the former, I don't offer any solutions whatsoever, in any kind of format.

Thank you for the reminder -- it does feel like people can be in (at least) two different modes -- with a desire to vent and be heard, or inquiring about a solution. Yet it is not obvious which since the two can sound so similar.

If someone is grieving it's probably time to just listen, but when someone is stuck with a social problem they may be rubber ducking with you rather than considering you to be a good approximation of an oracle ;)

Re: Just don’t

#173

Post by eventhorizon77 »

gavinray wrote: post #83
dacohenii wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not that you should go out of your way to be hurtful, but any genuinely useful advice/suggestions should be given without regard for emotion. You're at work, not a social club. I agree that this could be useful advice and that you should _not_ hesitate to give it if you think it will be useful. However, I think it's rather extreme and short-sighted to say that such advice should be given entirely "without regard fo…

I have a hard time empathizing with this. I understand the principle, but here's where I come from/my experience: When many of my coworkers message me on Slack for example, they don't just leave me a message asking for what they want, they say "Hey, how are you", or "How was your weekend", or some other silly thing. I know they don't care about the answer to my question. Now, instead of being able to asynchronously a…

This can be a cultural thing. In particular, if I understand correctly, in India it is considered rude not to make small talk before jumping into work. (I'm slightly autistic too but it's not completely useless. I ended up taking a trip to India at one point, and such trips are much easier if you've put in the effort to understand the culture, and your coworkers everyday lives.) I would suggest trying not to be so brief. Ask about their family, their commute to work, etc - get to know them a little better.

Re: Just don’t

#174

Post by spacehunt »

photochemsyn wrote: post #153
mindcrime wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the situation where help is clearly needed, 'let's consider possible solutions' is a better entry point, along with 'let's ensure we don't make it worse' - i.e. take a snapshot of the current situation, store the current working file, etc. Meh. Just goes to show how communication is a very subjective and personal thing. To my ears, both of those phrases would sound extremely condescending and patronizing. If I wer…

So what would you want people to say to you in that situation? It's also true that at some point, if people are overly prickly, but the problem absolutely has to be solved, then it's going to be 'show me the logs of exactly what you've been doing, now go take a break and let me work on it.' That also will piss people off, most likely.

"I've worked with similar problems in the past, let me know if you want to pick my brains" would be a much better start. Don't assume people want help, even if it seems crystal clear to you help is needed.

Re: Just don’t

#175

Post by abbeyj »

gavinray wrote: post #83
dacohenii wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not that you should go out of your way to be hurtful, but any genuinely useful advice/suggestions should be given without regard for emotion. You're at work, not a social club. I agree that this could be useful advice and that you should _not_ hesitate to give it if you think it will be useful. However, I think it's rather extreme and short-sighted to say that such advice should be given entirely "without regard fo…

I have a hard time empathizing with this. I understand the principle, but here's where I come from/my experience: When many of my coworkers message me on Slack for example, they don't just leave me a message asking for what they want, they say "Hey, how are you", or "How was your weekend", or some other silly thing. I know they don't care about the answer to my question. Now, instead of being able to asynchronously a…

Spreading https://nohello.net/ around your company may help. I have it set as my status message.

Re: Just don’t

#176

Post by fishtoaster »

actionablefiber wrote: post #17
unsupp0rted wrote: post #7

I get a lot more mileage out of "have you tried..." than "why don't you just...". As a recent example, I wrote a system that auto-generates PDF packing slips from an order form, to send to a warehouse for picking and packing. Yesterday a client told me to "just make it landscape" while I was explaining why "just making it landscape" won't solve the problem of giving the warehouse whitespace to pencil stuff in, becaus…

I go with "my first impulse is to suggest..." which IMO adds the diplomatic nuance of admitting an incomplete understanding of the problem and/or the person experiencing the problem. You either get a "good suggestion, I'll try that" as a response or you get "you might think it's a good idea but I already considered it and XYZ problems occurred" and you can work from there.

Oh, I might have to borrow that! I've sometimes used "for my own understanding, is there a reason we're not doing X?"

Re: Just don’t

#177

Post by londons_explore »

If anyone is trying to help me or tell me something, please ignore all this advice.

If you think something is simple, just tell me how you find it simple and show/tell me how you'd do it. I'm pretty sure I'll catch on, and before long I'll think it's simple too.

If everyone interacting with me has to tiptoe round every mental health issue I may or may not have, then I'll learn slower and together we'll get less done. Lose lose.

Re: Just don’t

#178

Post by SnowHill9902 »

2devnull wrote: post #125
blowski wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marriage has taught me to go even further than that. I now ask "are you telling me to get it off your chest, or you want help solving it?". If the former, I don't offer any solutions whatsoever, in any kind of format.

Another useful thing to say, “oh no that sounds terrible, what are you going to do?” It can help reframe from complaining to strategizing, and that can make people more receptive to outside ideas.

I wouldn’t recommend this. First of all, you shouldn’t provide personal opinions such as “terrible”. Then, asking what they are going to do forces them to confront the problem which they may not be ready to do yet, or may not want to articulate to you.

Re: Just don’t

#179

Post by vsareto »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #166
vsareto wrote: post #160

I'm all for cutting this out with medical advice and such (unsolicited advice, and importantly wrong advice), but this example annoys me: >You look at some graphs and error messages. It’s easy (once again, I speak from experience) to say something like “Could you just cache the hot partition keys?” or “So, just scan the logs for the high-latency signals and frequency-sort them.” >This. Will. Not. Help. It's not fair…

> It's not fair to ask people for help and then complain about their word usage when trying to help. This is a situation where solicited advice was asked for. This is not wrong but it's not always useful. Being more kind in your language when giving help will carry your point across more clearly. Consider a junior engineer stressed out by deadlines -- sure, they should listen to you calmly and fix the problem, but it…

I agree with culling 'just' because it rarely adds clarity, but I don't get the emotional impact others are having when they hear it. This blog post is trying to establish that its use definitely means something bad and condescending, but I don't agree with it:

>The word “just” is a signal that you’re not taking their problem seriously.

It wants to use this (flawed imo) reason to make people feel guilty any time they use 'just'.

Re: Just don’t

#180

Post by ipiz0618 »

Reminds me of a colleague who, upon seeing every little issue of a massive program, complains the whole thing is "completely broken". And when people try to explain why the issue happens, he would interrupt and say "I don't care, just fix it right now". The intention is obvious - to show authority and frame everything as urgent.
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