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The endless browser wars

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Re: The endless browser wars

#171

Post by gtsop »

The discussion around firefox being inferior to chrome I think is totally irrelevant and missleading.

Yes, chrome has supperior functionality, if you don't care about privacy and freedom then there is no discussion to be had here. If you do care, please don't throw arguments like your fans going loud and your ram filling up. Instead, support open source projects financialy or put volunteer some of your time to help fix these problems.

I am not saying that privacy and freedom should be hard, but as of right now, they are. You either accept it, suck the downsides and help to fix any issues, or you give up and surrender the fate of the field to a single company, Google.

We are all free to do what we think best for ourselves. But please, no fooling ourselves. No excuses.

Re: The endless browser wars

#172

Post by CivBase »

1MachineElf wrote: post #156
CivBase wrote: post #111

> The larger problem, though, is that it's not at all clear that Firefox will remain a viable alternative to Chrome. Its market share has been falling for years, and not everybody is pleased with the directions that the Mozilla Foundation has taken. I'm disappointed by how many people cling to Chrome/Chromium under the justification that they don't like where Mozilla is going. If you can't tolerate Firefox because of…

If not leaving Firefox, what is the preferred way to signal to Mozilla that we aren't happy with their leadership's choices?

If product usage signals an organization that you're happy with their leadership choices, then doesn't leaving Firefox for Chrome/Chromium signal to Google that you're happy with theirs? Is that really a better message?

I'm not advocating for Firefox here. It's the browser I use, but there are other options out there. Safari is obviously an option for people in the Apple ecosystem and another user suggested Pale Moon. I think there are even justifiable reasons for using Chrome/Chromium. Like I said, I don't want Firefox to become dominant. I want browser diversity.

Re: The endless browser wars

#173

Post by nikon »

atombender wrote: post #125
stiray wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that Firefox HAS created a new rendering engine, but people don't switch. It has nothing to do with technology, people wont even try to switch. Some for fanboyism, some because they would have to adapt, some don't even know what browser is. What I do consider staggering is how many technically capable people are not prepared to make a switch. Google is slowly closing down the lock-down trap they have nur…

Until recently, I used Firefox on my Mac, and had been for a couple of years. I got tired of the browser being a bit slow and consistently consuming 20-30% CPU even when not doing anything. My MacBook Pro's fan was running 100% of the time. I don't have many tabs open and never found an explanation. Last week, I decided I had enough, and switched over to Chrome. Now the fan doesn't run anymore, and Chrome consumes mu…

I did the same, but Chrome -> Safari. My battery life is considerably better.

Re: The endless browser wars

#174

Post by kmeisthax »

throwaway2245 wrote: post #75
mumblemumble wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so much more pernicious than that. As long as one company controls the One Rendering Engine to Rule Them All, one company de facto controls the Web itself, and everyone else is mostly just along for the ride.

It's worse even than that. As long as one company controls the One Rendering Engine, all websites are tested against that One Rendering Engine (i.e. not the truth of the spec). It becomes impossible to create a new rendering engine without actively copying the quirks behaviours.

In other words, Flash is back.

Re: The endless browser wars

#175

Post by atombender »

nikon wrote: post #173
atombender wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently, I used Firefox on my Mac, and had been for a couple of years. I got tired of the browser being a bit slow and consistently consuming 20-30% CPU even when not doing anything. My MacBook Pro's fan was running 100% of the time. I don't have many tabs open and never found an explanation. Last week, I decided I had enough, and switched over to Chrome. Now the fan doesn't run anymore, and Chrome consumes mu…

I did the same, but Chrome -> Safari. My battery life is considerably better.

I'd certainly prefer Safari (which I used for years), but it is unfortunately severely lacking in extensions.

Re: The endless browser wars

#176

Post by kmeisthax »

wombatmobile wrote: post #41

The original browser "war" between Microsoft and Netscape was over the definition of HTML. Microsoft wanted to control it, and was prepared to damage Netscape's business to quash the competition illegally to impose an arbitrary monopoly. HTML5 has long been an open standard, maintained by the W3C. Google's role as a W3C member was to end the original browser war by supporting W3C processes with implementations and ev…

"Browser monoculture problem" sounds like a good name.

Re: The endless browser wars

#177

Post by tristor »

richeyryan wrote: post #77
Zardoz84 wrote: post #64

> The larger problem, though, is that it's not at all clear that Firefox will remain a viable alternative to Chrome. Its market share has been falling for years, and not everybody is pleased with the directions that the Mozilla Foundation has taken. The creators of web sites have responded by not caring about Firefox; having to retry broken web sites in Chrome is a ritual that many Firefox users have had to get used…

I encounter it occasionally. Either broken or omitted features. Slack calls don't work in Firefox just because. Blurring out your background in Google meet isn't available on Firefox. Some utilities websites here, in Ireland, don't work in Firefox but do in Chrome.

>Slack calls don't work in Firefox just because.

Slack calls don't work in Firefox because Slack explicitly made the choice to not support Firefox and to not follow web standards in how they implemented Slack calls. Furthermore, they go a step further by detecting your browser and blocking the feature for Firefox users and telling you to switch to Chrome. [1]

This is not a failure of Firefox, it's a failure of Slack. I think the attitude in your comment is very common, and is exactly why it's so hard to build a web browser for the modern web that isn't part of the Google Chrome monoculture. Users cannot differentiate easily between problems they encounter because of their browser vs problems they encounter because of the web app, and for the user it doesn't matter because it's still a problem. Regardless of the cause, it's important that browser makers solve these issues to ensure that users can get things done on the web, but that's easier said than done.

[1]: https://twitter.com/slackhq/status/958645632620748800?lang=e...

Re: The endless browser wars

#178

Post by dkdk8283 »

xg15 wrote: post #127
CivBase wrote: post #111

> The larger problem, though, is that it's not at all clear that Firefox will remain a viable alternative to Chrome. Its market share has been falling for years, and not everybody is pleased with the directions that the Mozilla Foundation has taken. I'm disappointed by how many people cling to Chrome/Chromium under the justification that they don't like where Mozilla is going. If you can't tolerate Firefox because of…

> If you can't tolerate Firefox because of Mozilla's problems, how can you possibly stomach Chrome/Chromium with Google at the wheel? OT, but I think this is an interesting psychological phenomenon that occurs in a lot of settings, in particular politics: People, services, products etc are not judged by objective (or even just common) standards but by the standards they announce for themselves . So someone who claims…

Firefox laid off the majority of their security teams last year. I don’t trust Google but I trust Firefox less.

Re: The endless browser wars

#179

Post by Wowfunhappy »

tristor wrote: post #177
richeyryan wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encounter it occasionally. Either broken or omitted features. Slack calls don't work in Firefox just because. Blurring out your background in Google meet isn't available on Firefox. Some utilities websites here, in Ireland, don't work in Firefox but do in Chrome.

>Slack calls don't work in Firefox just because. Slack calls don't work in Firefox because Slack explicitly made the choice to not support Firefox and to not follow web standards in how they implemented Slack calls. Furthermore, they go a step further by detecting your browser and blocking the feature for Firefox users and telling you to switch to Chrome. [1] This is not a failure of Firefox, it's a failure of Slack.…

> Furthermore, they go a step further by detecting your browser and blocking the feature for Firefox users and telling you to switch to Chrome.

Well, it is perhaps worth noting that if you fake your user agent to remove the block, calls still don't work (I've tried). I'm not opposed to blocking a feature which the developer knows is not going to work (although it would be nice if their was an override, for browser developers if no one else).

But, yes, the fact the calls don't work in the first place is BS. And it is, sadly, one of the reasons I finally gave up and switched to Chrome earlier this week. I need this stuff for work, and I just can't fight it anymore!

Re: The endless browser wars

#180

Post by zingplex »

eitland wrote: post #145
CivBase wrote: post #111

> The larger problem, though, is that it's not at all clear that Firefox will remain a viable alternative to Chrome. Its market share has been falling for years, and not everybody is pleased with the directions that the Mozilla Foundation has taken. I'm disappointed by how many people cling to Chrome/Chromium under the justification that they don't like where Mozilla is going. If you can't tolerate Firefox because of…

> I'm disappointed by how many people cling to Chrome/Chromium under the justification that they don't like where Mozilla is going. Totally agree. You'll see me criticize Mozilla harshly but I still use FF because 1. the alternative is worse 2. secondary: technically speaking Firefox has always had an edge one way or another

What would you say their technical edge is now?
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