The endless browser wars • Hacker News Board

Re: The endless browser wars

#61

Post by fullstop » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

kungito wrote: post #51

dzdt wrote: post #50

Not mentioned is the password situation. That is the bigger lock-in than bookmarks. I don't know what is the tech stack underneath or even what chromium does. But as a normal-ish chrome user I know behind the scenes google is managing my passwords and it would be a nightmare to switch. Too many sites I wouldn't know how to access without their password management. That is true lock-in.

This is what I disliked about using password managers with autogenerated complex passwords. It feel like too much lock in. I'm glad I switched to Firefox Lockwise before getting too locked in with Google's password management

I switched from Enpass to Bitwarden and it was quite simple. Those are out-of-browser, though, and more in my control.

Re: The endless browser wars

#62

Post by mkl95 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

hyper_reality wrote: post #60

phendrenad2 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you sacrifice an open-source project that people can just fork?

"Just fork" underestimates the huge amount of effort it requires to develop a modern browser that stays up to date with the latest web standards. There's a reason why even Microsoft's browser now is based on Chromium.

As other people have pointed out, Chromium has a gargantuan codebase. Unless dozens of seasoned developers are willing to become active contributors and maintainers for free, I don't see it happening soon.

Re: The endless browser wars

#63

Post by loudmax » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #45

stiray wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that Firefox HAS created a new rendering engine, but people don't switch. It has nothing to do with technology, people wont even try to switch. Some for fanboyism, some because they would have to adapt, some don't even know what browser is. What I do consider staggering is how many technically capable people are not prepared to make a switch. Google is slowly closing down the lock-down trap they have nur…

> Google is slowly closing down the lockdown trap they have nurtured for so many years I think that forks of Chromium which have their own sync are easily thwarting this effort. If nothing else, you can always use Edge.

Chrome to Edge is just trading one monopolist vendor lock-in for another.

Re: The endless browser wars

#64

Post by Zardoz84 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

> The larger problem, though, is that it's not at all clear that Firefox will remain a viable alternative to Chrome. Its market share has been falling for years, and not everybody is pleased with the directions that the Mozilla Foundation has taken. The creators of web sites have responded by not caring about Firefox; having to retry broken web sites in Chrome is a ritual that many Firefox users have had to get used to. It's not surprising that users give up and just run Chrome from the outset.

Pardon ? I don't run on any issue that requires using Chrome instead of Firefox. At least, not usually.

Also, as web developer I always work on Firefox and then I try on Chromiun and Edge to see if I run on a Blink bug (Yeah! I hit a few working on this way) or something that it's different between Firefox and Blink engine

Re: The endless browser wars

#65

Post by karmakaze » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

TL;DR

  - reminder: Chrome is not/was not opensource
  - Chromium is losing features like bookmark sync on Mar 15
    because Google will no longer issue API keys
  - if you care about opensource, run Firefox (or Chromium)
  - if you are a web dev, support Firefox

Re: The endless browser wars

#66

Post by paulryanrogers » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #58

stiray wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that Firefox HAS created a new rendering engine, but people don't switch. It has nothing to do with technology, people wont even try to switch. Some for fanboyism, some because they would have to adapt, some don't even know what browser is. What I do consider staggering is how many technically capable people are not prepared to make a switch. Google is slowly closing down the lock-down trap they have nur…

Mozilla has also shot itself in the foot by alienating Firefox's core userbase (power users) with terrible attempts to copy Chrome in a (failed) attempt to cater to idiots. They ended up trading off powerful extensions for what? A terrible, slower copy of Chrome with Pocket and a share button built into the browser . Seriously.

YMMV but I've found the new Firefox Quantum faster and its extensions easier to write. While the UI customizability has dropped a bit it's more secure with the line of death keeping out deceptive UIs

Re: The endless browser wars

#67

Post by MisterTea » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #58

stiray wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that Firefox HAS created a new rendering engine, but people don't switch. It has nothing to do with technology, people wont even try to switch. Some for fanboyism, some because they would have to adapt, some don't even know what browser is. What I do consider staggering is how many technically capable people are not prepared to make a switch. Google is slowly closing down the lock-down trap they have nur…

Mozilla has also shot itself in the foot by alienating Firefox's core userbase (power users) with terrible attempts to copy Chrome in a (failed) attempt to cater to idiots. They ended up trading off powerful extensions for what? A terrible, slower copy of Chrome with Pocket and a share button built into the browser . Seriously.

They lost the power users because they lost focus on their core product which is a web browser. If they want to keep power users then make a useful non hostile browser that puts the user back in FULL control. Under no circumstances should a website EVER manipulate windows, open windows, prevent me from closing a window, or play audio or video without my consent. Instead we get a poor chrome copy.

Re: The endless browser wars

#68

Post by mumblemumble » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

What really strikes me here is that so many of us, perhaps taken in by the tacit assumption that embrace, extend, extinguish is a peculiarly Microsoft behavior, didn't see this sort of thing coming, and even spent much of the past decade cheering it on.

Re: The endless browser wars

#69

Post by mumblemumble » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

phendrenad2 wrote: post #45

stiray wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that Firefox HAS created a new rendering engine, but people don't switch. It has nothing to do with technology, people wont even try to switch. Some for fanboyism, some because they would have to adapt, some don't even know what browser is. What I do consider staggering is how many technically capable people are not prepared to make a switch. Google is slowly closing down the lock-down trap they have nur…

> Google is slowly closing down the lockdown trap they have nurtured for so many years I think that forks of Chromium which have their own sync are easily thwarting this effort. If nothing else, you can always use Edge.

It's so much more pernicious than that. As long as one company controls the One Rendering Engine to Rule Them All, one company de facto controls the Web itself, and everyone else is mostly just along for the ride.

Re: The endless browser wars

#70

Post by mkl95 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

dgb23 wrote: post #49

mkl95 wrote: post #29

Every Chromium user needs to understand that Chromium is a Google project, and Google like to sacrifice a random project once in a while (don't be evil huh?). I'm completely unaware of how Google handle these decisions internally, but from the point of view of an outsider they are trying to optimize their resources and output as much as possible. If some service is not extremely successful and profitable, and it's be…

Chrome and Chromium are not some niche products. Same with ads, search and GCP. These things are here to stay for a very long time. There are other problems with Chrome and Chromium. Google is a brilliant company and I want to like them. Out of the biggest tech companies they seem to apply the least bullying tactics, worker exploitation and so on. But the fact that they are an ad company that profiles my behavior lea…

Linux makes heavy use of GNU technology, but the GNU OS itself is relatively unknown. Just like Chrome and Edge make heavy use of Chromium, but it is used directly by relatively few users (don't get me wrong, I was a Chromium user for years). Google may be trying to turn the Chromium browser into a "Chromium userland" rather than a browser will full capabilities.