Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers • Hacker News Board

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#171

Post by huskyr » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 10:34 AM UTC

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #116

huskyr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's something to be said for putting this data in their own Wikibase instance. There are a lot of items here, including many items like 'Inventory of person X in year Y'. Adding so many items to Wikidata would not have been without its controversy. Also, i could imagine they need a lot of properties that are not available, or aren't used in the same way on Wikidata. There is a reason why all museums and o…

Yes, there are legitimate reasons here, and the presentation is, indeed, very nice. There's some momentum enabling various hybrid models for wikibase, and allowing projects such as this to enjoy the freedom of an individual platform, while still using Wikidata as the backend for some or most or all of the data seems promising. I disagree with the idea that this data is inferior in some way to what is expected for inc…

I'm not arguing that the data is inferior (because it's definitely not, the sourcing is properly done like you mentioned), just that any large import of so many data items (whether it is about streets, academic papers or people) will first need to be discussed with the community. Also, Wikidata always refers to existing sources, and this website is just that: an excellent source for future reference on items.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#172

Post by redis_mlc » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 11:14 AM UTC

fredlindemann wrote: post #6

thegrim33 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that every civilization that has ever existed has both enslaved others and been enslaved in the past, right? Where do your reparations end? Are you going to forcefully take money from me because African Americans were enslaved generations ago, but then forcefully have money taken from them for the other Africans and other races they themselves enslaved in Africa before that? Where does it end? Do you h…

> You do realize that every civilization that has ever existed has both enslaved others and been enslaved in the past, right? Do you realize that's an extraordinary claim? You have proof for this, right?

[dead]

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#173

Post by redis_mlc » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 11:14 AM UTC

gibreparations wrote: post #73

adventured wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that you mention it. Modern Germany should pay the US enormous sums in reparations for our role in destroying Nazi Germany, saving Western Europe (which Russia did not do, Russia enslaved half of Europe), freeing people from Nazi death camps, propping up a post-war democratic Germany against the conquering monster to the East. Not just the US of course. Britain and France among others are owed a lot more in repar…

You're joking but what you describe is pretty much the Treaty of Versailles, which was actually one of the triggers of WW2.

> the "state" that started WW2 was the Austria-Hungarian Empire

typo, make that WW1.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#174

Post by Rexxar » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 12:13 PM UTC

dx87 wrote: post #147

Rexxar wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of European didn't have anything to do with this trade and slavery was progressively forbidden on the territory of nearly all European countries during middle age (since 1315 for France for example but also in other countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe ). All big European revolutions after 1789 had claims to stop slavery in overseas territory. So lots of European people have actually…

It's pretty meaningless to say that slavery was outlawed in most European countries for hundreds of years, even though some had colonies around the world until well into the 1900s. European countries just outsourced the slavery and called it empire building.

There is a lot of difference. Morally, why European people should be responsible of regime that oppressed them and against they rebel multiple times ? Economically, European peasants that were the great majority of population didn't get any advantage of all of this, and some of them in southern/eastern Europe were victims of similar behaviour from other countries. Why someone from south of Italy whose ancestor were enslaved by Ottomans should pay for crimes of kings of Britain, Spain and Portugal ?

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#175

Post by jpster » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 1:51 PM UTC

TT3351 wrote: post #166

danans wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not all suffered the same slavery we know today. What is the "slavery we know today"? Do you mean "American slavery as we understand it today", or "Slavery in the current day"? If the former, then how is the passage you quoted different from our understanding of American slavery? Do you mean to say it was better, worse, or in some other way different?

Specifically slavery was more varied than "American slavery as we understand it today." The passage I quoted is different, in that it departs from the traditional model of plantation based, field labor slavery. It is still reprehensible exploitation, of course. It's just important to remember/question how diverse people's experiences actually were.

I’m trying to see something:

“Not all suffered the same Holocaust we know today. It’s just important to remember/question how diverse people’s Holocaust experiences actually were.”

Maybe it’s just me but these type of statements seem to miss the point. Given the deplorable state of American understanding of slavery, Reconstruction, the state-sanctioned apartheid that only ended a few decades ago, and all its effects that continue to reverberate, I don’t think “a nuanced understanding” of slavery is really what’s called for. The evidence suggests that most Americans never even learned the ABCs of slavery and its effects.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#176

Post by runako » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:09 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #140

runako wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> direct reparations are the best approach to resolving the continuing racism in America This conflates two separate issues. One is about a financial debt owed to people. This is owed for forced labor and land thefts which continued into the 20th century. Like the OP said, for the most part this is well documented. Debts are repaid in cash or like goods. Racism is a separate topic, which I agree should be approached…

What about the treaties we broke with Native Americans, stealing their land after we agreed they could have it in perpetuity? This happened dozens of times in different parts of the country. Do we repay them as well? And how many trillions (since that’s there value of such land now, with or without interest)

I know this is supposed to be a gotcha, but I would suggest the burden is on the thief to justify why a documented theft should stand. Put it in writing. Codify it into law. How long does one need to hold stolen property before it conveys under the law? Was this a one-time allowable theft? Was it only allowable to steal from certain people during the applicable time? During what time period? How do we define precisely who it was acceptable to steal from?

We live in a legal regime where it's not even permissible to take sunken treasure that's near countries, even after centuries at sea. But somehow land stolen from indigenous people and Black people more recently is somehow unrecoverable? We need to at least write down in our laws the rationale for this.

More immediately pertinent: why were these thefts substantially different from those the Supreme Court ruled against in Oklahoma?

If we're not willing to at least do that much, yeah we should just give it back. The alternative is choosing lawlessness, which is not something we are bound to do.

We don't have to worry about converting to dollars because we can just return title to the land itself. The Supreme Court did the same this year in Oklahoma, so it wouldn't even be unprecedented.

https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-court-oklahoma/us-suprem...

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#177

Post by UncleMeat » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #74

tunesmith wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty similar to the arguments of why you should not have to pay part of your taxes because you don't agree with part of how it's spent. It might not have been "your" fault, but we all live in a society that bears the fault.

Do you accept fault for the atrocities committed to Native Americans? Why aren’t you paying them reparations, too? And while we are at it, what about the descendants of the Japanese Americans who were imprisoned during World War 2 in Colorado and other states? What about the children who worked in sweat shops and coal mines during the 19th and early 20th centuries, many of whom died young? Their relatives should be c…

> I can go on and on and our country will be bankrupt before we’re done. But hey, at least you’ve taken responsibility for the actions of others.

Spoken by Abraham Lincoln and inscribed on his memorial:

"Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#178

Post by TT3351 » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 3:23 PM UTC

jpster wrote: post #175

TT3351 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically slavery was more varied than "American slavery as we understand it today." The passage I quoted is different, in that it departs from the traditional model of plantation based, field labor slavery. It is still reprehensible exploitation, of course. It's just important to remember/question how diverse people's experiences actually were.

I’m trying to see something: “Not all suffered the same Holocaust we know today. It’s just important to remember/question how diverse people’s Holocaust experiences actually were.” Maybe it’s just me but these type of statements seem to miss the point. Given the deplorable state of American understanding of slavery, Reconstruction, the state-sanctioned apartheid that only ended a few decades ago, and all its effects…

Because a proportion of America has been poorly educated, it's inappropriate to interrogate the primary sources slaves left behind? I don't follow.

Yeah, obviously we need to fix the appalling state of our Civil War and slavery history in this country.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#179

Post by jpster » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

TT3351 wrote: post #178

jpster wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m trying to see something: “Not all suffered the same Holocaust we know today. It’s just important to remember/question how diverse people’s Holocaust experiences actually were.” Maybe it’s just me but these type of statements seem to miss the point. Given the deplorable state of American understanding of slavery, Reconstruction, the state-sanctioned apartheid that only ended a few decades ago, and all its effects…

Because a proportion of America has been poorly educated, it's inappropriate to interrogate the primary sources slaves left behind? I don't follow. Yeah, obviously we need to fix the appalling state of our Civil War and slavery history in this country.

Does the account you posted here resemble most of the chronicled experiences you’ve encountered?

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#180

Post by TT3351 » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

jpster wrote: post #179

TT3351 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a proportion of America has been poorly educated, it's inappropriate to interrogate the primary sources slaves left behind? I don't follow. Yeah, obviously we need to fix the appalling state of our Civil War and slavery history in this country.

Does the account you posted here resemble most of the chronicled experiences you’ve encountered?

Nope! Never said it did. EDIT: Literally just picked a random (that I thought would fit in the space I had--didn't want to go over-long) passage from the Freedman's interviews section of the book.