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Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

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Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#111

Post by rayiner »

xyzzyz wrote: post #87
rayiner wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all current Americans. I also do not think direct reparations are the best approach to resolving the continuing racism in America. There's no "logical hoops." It's a concrete and straightforward argument. Black and Native Americans are differently situated in a way that shows up starkly in the data: https://academic.…

> The United States, an entity that is legally distinct from its people, was culpable for enabling slavery and segregation. It can be held liable and forced to pay for its part. Ignoring for a while a bunch of practical (though probably solvable to a large degree) problems with this, like on what basis exactly we decide who is paid, and how much are the damages exactly, a more interesting question to me is: what's ne…

> like on what basis exactly we decide who pays

The way we pay for everything else—we have the Fed print money.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#112

Post by elefanten »

tptacek wrote: post #86
01100011 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I think the resistance to reparations comes from folks like me who don't see a reason we should pay anything. Most of my ancestors are German immigrants to the northeast US who arrived after slavery was abolished. The remainder were poor Scotts Irish who continued to live in poverty in northern Appalachia. I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all…

Did they arrive after redlining ended, early in the 1970s?

This seems like a huge stretch and reeks of taking a tortured argument one major leap too far.

How many people in society 1) were in a position to redline or seriously influence redlining, 2) called for and actively supported it, or 3) even knew about it?

Even if someone's ancestors arrived post-slavery and pre-civil rights movement (forget a specific overhanging issue like redlining), would you significantly attribute the state and dynamics of American society to them? What about establishing your own sense of how this society works and establishing your own economic beachhead. Are you immediately supposed to jump in to the oldest and thorniest and most contentious issues of your new home country as if you knew what you were doing?

Let's extend that argument then. Why isn't there a strong, unequivocal history of latin immigrants fighting hard for reparations for slavery? Or asian immigrants? Do those immigrant communities also deserve part-blame for not fighting redlining in the 70s?

Would it be anathema do admit some white people in America had absolutely nothing to do with the plight of black people in America? Can the leftish political discourse bear this weighty notion, or would it break under its bulk?

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#113

Post by OptionX »

throwaway535 wrote: post #109
OptionX wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, by your own analogy. If both you and the robber have been dead for 300+ years would it make sense to make the robbers family pay your descendants for it? Keep in mind none of the people had contact with anyone remotely involved with the original robbery or had any way to influence it or impact it. Should the sons pay for the sins of the fathers? Pretty sure I could find someone in your ancestral line that commi…

Great discussion, let's continue. So my dad goes and steals your dad's land. He give me the land as his son. I split it in half and give half to a friend of mine. The investigation occurs and determine this land was stolen and should be returned. I don't think the argument of, "sorry won't return it because I didn't steal it, my dad did" holds much water. Nor the argument of, "nope I won't return it because a friend…

Slavery only counts as stolen good if you still consider black people property :)

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#114

Post by xyzzyz »

rayiner wrote: post #111
xyzzyz wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States, an entity that is legally distinct from its people, was culpable for enabling slavery and segregation. It can be held liable and forced to pay for its part. Ignoring for a while a bunch of practical (though probably solvable to a large degree) problems with this, like on what basis exactly we decide who is paid, and how much are the damages exactly, a more interesting question to me is: what's ne…

> like on what basis exactly we decide who pays The way we pay for everything else—we have the Fed print money.

Sorry, I meant "who is paid" there.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#115

Post by Rexxar »

adventured wrote: post #45
MrMan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were three primary groups of beneficiaries - planters in the America's, slave traders in Europe, and the Kingdoms in Africa who were among the procurers and sellers.

The European empires had all the power: they had the military dominance, they had the means, they had the transport, they had the economic controls, and they benefitted the most accordingly. They also spent centuries torturing Africa. 12.5 million Africans don't end up enslaved and heading to the Americas without the European empires making it happen. The US owes a lot for its part, no question (what I'm saying is no…

99% of European didn't have anything to do with this trade and slavery was progressively forbidden on the territory of nearly all European countries during middle age (since 1315 for France for example but also in other countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe).

All big European revolutions after 1789 had claims to stop slavery in overseas territory. So lots of European people have actually fought a to put an end to this long before Americans. Europeans were also victims from slavery from North Africa and Ottoman Empire at the same time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire).

Kings of the time obviously use this trade as an instrument of power but it was not something that had a meaningful impact on life of ordinary peoples.

You are just inventing an alternate history to find someone to dislike.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#116

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

huskyr wrote: post #17
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #4

A worthy cause. Too bad they feel the need to run their own platform instead of contributing to wikidata. They're using the same software, and the data falls squarely within Wikidata's scope. Even worse that they feel the need to stamp this with a CC license. Not only does this make it incompatible with the CC0/public domain requirement. I consider it borderline offensive to assert copyright over the basic facts of s…

I think there's something to be said for putting this data in their own Wikibase instance. There are a lot of items here, including many items like 'Inventory of person X in year Y'. Adding so many items to Wikidata would not have been without its controversy. Also, i could imagine they need a lot of properties that are not available, or aren't used in the same way on Wikidata. There is a reason why all museums and o…

Yes, there are legitimate reasons here, and the presentation is, indeed, very nice. There's some momentum enabling various hybrid models for wikibase, and allowing projects such as this to enjoy the freedom of an individual platform, while still using Wikidata as the backend for some or most or all of the data seems promising.

I disagree with the idea that this data is inferior in some way to what is expected for inclusion in WD. Their sourcing seems to be impeccable, better than maybe 80 % of WD at the statement-level ("Imported from cebwiki") and certainly adequate on the item-level.

Data on individual slaves also strikes me as far more useful for the possibilities that Wikidata offers than academic papers. The latter are important in their own right, but metadata on journal articles is of little use unless you're studying impact factors, academic careers, or the rise and fall of academic disciplines.

Structured data on slavery neatly connects with geography, economics, culture, and really any aspect society today. I imagine there were changes in regions of origin over time, for example, and it'd be interesting to see if these can still be found in, say, regional culinary preferences, language, or music.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#117

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

tunesmith wrote: post #84
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you accept fault for the atrocities committed to Native Americans? Why aren’t you paying them reparations, too? And while we are at it, what about the descendants of the Japanese Americans who were imprisoned during World War 2 in Colorado and other states? What about the children who worked in sweat shops and coal mines during the 19th and early 20th centuries, many of whom died young? Their relatives should be c…

There's this old scene in the Simpsons where Grampa Simpson stands up and says, "Sure, we COULD fix up main street," and everyone in the town hall meeting cheers, and he says, "shut up! I'm just saying we COULD blow all our money on a stupid little street," and the townspeople cheer again and lift him on their shoulders. Anyway, your comment reminded me of that. I'm less familiar with lead in water. If that was just…

Thanks for the funny reply. Good to laugh.

Lead pipes and lead-based solder is just one example and if you don’t like that example because it happened due to “lack of science”, I can come up with others. My point is that there are countless atrocities in America’s past, recent and not so recent.

How can we compensate everyone who deserves it and how can we prioritize one group (e.g. descendants of slaves) over another (e.g. descendants of Native American civilians who were slaughtered at one of the many massacres)?

We can’t and shouldn’t.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#118

Post by rayiner »

D895n9o33436N42 wrote: post #54
smt88 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: my parents are immigrants, and I have absolutely no genealogical connection to American slavery. > having a well founded number for what the cost of reparations should be I just don't understand how someone can talk about a "well-founded number" for reparations in a serious way. How can you calculate a dollar amount, even within 5 orders of magnitude, for something that happened to millions of people for…

I’m an immigrant, and I’ll never stand for any kind of reparations for descendants of former slaves. Invariably this will come out of tax dollars to which I’m contributing by way of income tax. Why should I be charged for wrongs - however horrible - in which neither myself nor my ancestors were involved? When there was still slavery in America, my people were enslaving members of their own ethnic group back in the ol…

I’m also an immigrant, and I think that’s the wrong way to look at it. It’s not about “benefitting from the spoils of slavery.” It’s about having to pay taxes to fund any other kind of obligations that existed before you came here. The US still has outstanding bonds from the first bond issue 1790. It’s still paying pensions from the Spanish American war. If you move to Chicago, you’ll have to pay off pensions for people who retired decades before you moved there.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#119

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

tasogare wrote: post #77
rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black Americans typically have deeper roots in the United States than white Americans: https://news.gallup.com/poll/4621/majority-americans-identif... > Black Americans are more likely than either whites or Hispanics to be the third generation Americans. Seventy-five percent of black Americans indicate they are at least the third generation born in the United States, compared to 58% of whites and 13% of Hispanics.

Those numbers are very hard to believe. I bet most if not 100% Hispanics have American ancestry going back before pre-Colombian times while literally 0% of White and Black have such roots.

Irish Potato Famine, cause of mass migration to North America, happened in 1846, i. e. near the end of slavery. The Italian wave of immigration came even later IIRC.

(And "Hispanic" literally means "from Spain". Very few Spaniards crossed The Atlantic before Columbus.)

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#120

Post by rayiner »

chordalkeyboard wrote: post #94
generalizations wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the principle involved, then I think, though IANAL, the statute of limitations applies. If my employer from 20 years ago cheated me of some pay, I'm pretty sure he's safe from litigation at this point. > if you care about your decedents and progeny at all, there is nothing to gain from cheating. You may benefit and die before repercussions occur, but all debts must be paid eventually. I really hope you're n…

> the statute of limitations applies. The statute of limitations is a law. We are talking about a moral claim that supercedes the text of laws. Remember this is from a time when slavery itself was legal. Also consider there is no statute of limitations for some crimes including murder. > I really hope you're not suggesting that we set a precedent of digging through history to find old debts we might be owed. I think…

More important, the statute of limitations is a law that’s established at the discretion of the legislature for policy reasons. There’s no inherent moral right to a statute of limitations
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