Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#171

Post by dvasdekis » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 1:12 AM UTC

late2part wrote: post #153

siphon22 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes things really are that simple though. Why can you (most of the time) leave your bike outside a store you stop at in Japan but not in America? Because it isn't part of Japanese culture to take what doesn't belong to you, but is normal for a number of Americans. Why can you get relatively wholesome food at a 7-11 in East Asian countries while you get junk and trash at ones in America? Because Japanese people…

I'm an American and I don't wreck, vandalize or spray grafiti. I've seen same in Japan, Brazil, India, Hong Kong, Singapore, Paris, etc... (and US). Your generalizations are lazy.

As an Australian who has recently visited both the states and Japan, I can attest that there is a significant difference in the quality and care for the commons in both.

Personal anecdote: I saw a drunk Japanese businessman vomit on the sidewalk outside a bar in Tokyo, who then went back into the bar and collected napkins in order to clean up said puke. After cleaning up the puke, he then walked into a neighboring lamppost and collapsed to the ground, and an onlooker then went to his aid.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#172

Post by siphon22 » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 1:17 AM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #170

siphon22 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes things really are that simple though. Why can you (most of the time) leave your bike outside a store you stop at in Japan but not in America? Because it isn't part of Japanese culture to take what doesn't belong to you, but is normal for a number of Americans. Why can you get relatively wholesome food at a 7-11 in East Asian countries while you get junk and trash at ones in America? Because Japanese people…

Would you steal a bicycle in Japan? I wouldn't and it has nothing to do with hand-wavy culture. The reason I would not touch the unlocked bicycle is because I know it is registered with the police. If I got stopped on that bicycle and they looked up the frame number then I would have some explaining to do. Even if I claimed it was mine I could still be prosecuted for not registering 'the change of ownership' with the…

Bicycle theft thing is just one example. I was giving various examples of how culture played a role in influencing the environment. I never said Japanese people are Not Like Us and "therefore don't steal".

Your personal belief that Americans are exceptionally unlikely to steal your stuff is your belief to have. But I would still not leave my bike out for the Americans who do steal to take it and then have the other Americans who don't steal victim shame me "Oh, well why did you leave your bike out?"

It's just totally different man, culture is a hell of a drug. Maybe generally, if you're a lucky person, most people are honest, but A LOT aren't, and I'm not gonna be the one to drop my guard in America. I'll leave that to you and others.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#173

Post by SubiculumCode » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 1:22 AM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #36

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

There are a lot of opinions being floated here, so I feel free to float mine. I think that the use of private contractors for public works leads to corruption and large cost overruns.

It is a truism that government agencies lack competition, and thus can be less efficient and/or innovative compared to private enterprise. However, as we know, private enterprise's goal is profit, and profit only requires efficiency in the face of competition and price sensitivity of the consumer. While there can be competition and price sensitivity during contract bidding process, this can be corrupted through back door dealings, political donations, etc. Perhaps even more dire, is that government agencies may be bad at keeping contractors to the terms of their contract, being responsible for cost over-runs, etc, who actively wish to get the government to pay as much as possible. I think that infrastructure would be much cheaper if it were designed and built by government employees of the relevant agencies, because although they might not have extreme efficiency, they have no profit motive to swindle an inattentive government consumer. It is my opinion anyway. I do not have the resources to find the relevant data to see if there is a correlation in cost and private vs public employee construction. I'd like to see some empirical meat on my hunch. I did find several articles:

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/us/13contractor.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/09/18/do-private-...

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#174

Post by gok » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 1:51 AM UTC

It's surprising infrastructure in the US is as cheap as it is. It is built with no meaningful cost controls. Environmental impact studies are uniquely slow and hard to navigate. Only a few well-connected firms are able to bid, and they get picked for mostly political reasons. "Buy America" restrictions make a lot of obvious projects actually impossible. Those responsible for cost overruns are never held to account.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#175

Post by ralusek » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 1:55 AM UTC

smolder wrote: post #112

Analemma_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, even if this is true, it still doesn’t explain the cost difference between us and e.g. Japan. Construction firms and public infrastructure works in Japan have well-known ties to the yakuza, yet they still finish these at way lower costs than us (even though labor is more expensive!) Why?

Cultural differences: Japan is pretty homogenous and they seem to see themselves as part of a whole whereas in the US, for example, exploiting your fellow citizens for profit is almost a matter of duty in business.

Except in areas where citizens are allowed to "exploit their fellow citizens," i.e. markets, things are done in the US and elsewhere extremely efficiently. The problem with public infrastructure spending is that incentive structures are not cost driven, or at least not primarily as a function of cost. There are promises made to unions or contractor companies who pay the politicians or makeup major parts of their constituencies. Then there are other departments that have their say, such as environmental impact analyses. Then there is major price insensitivity, because the funding was guaranteed from taxes with absolutely no implication or responsibility to spend wisely or generate a return.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#176

Post by bbradley406 » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #148

cestith wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of China's more ambitious solutions to this was newly founded, planned metropolises where no major city had previously stood.

Aka the infamous ghost cities?

Which would you rather have? A city that stands empty, ready for people to move in, or a city so full and restricted that people camp on the streets?

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#177

Post by Retric » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:39 AM UTC

adamc wrote: post #116

tomohawk wrote: post #36

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

Given that the US vehicle fatalities as a whole are only around 36,000 (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in... ), 10 - 15 thousand seems hard to believe.

I read that as a worldwide figure. But, I would still like a source.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#178

Post by merpnderp » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:44 AM UTC

lowdose wrote: post #145

nsxwolf wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should still be talking about this. That story fascinated me. If the media went into more detail on infrastructure beyond stories about how it's crumbling or who in congress does or doesn't want to pay for it, that could really make a difference. I would watch a nightly news show called "Infrastructure Tonight" if it existed.

It would be awesome if the fourth estate executed their role in society proper. But outlets like the WSJ have to push out an article per minute to remain relevant in the search ranking. Maybe news is more important than just supplying entertainment and should the world take notice of UK's model with the BBC.

The great thing about markets is people get to vote on what’s important to them. The bad thing about government programs is they can force everyone else to pay for what’s important to a few loud voices.

There are lots of high quality subscriber news agencies struggling because their services aren’t that important to most people. Using the state to force people to subsidize that won’t make them care more.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#179

Post by mc32 » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #150

tomohawk wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that. However, the DOT has used the approach in other areas with great success. In many cases, the concrete roadways were put in before finite element analysis models were available or even remotely realistic. A lot of research has gone into how to repair these after the fact so that money is saved and you don't get the thumpity thump, etc. States make their own choices, though. The DOT can only cajole them by…

However, the DOT has used the approach in other areas with great success. And I get that - in fact I live it. I'm a government contractor that works on transportation projects and it's frustrating when a particular agency doesn't want to use an innovative technique or design that has literally been successful on another project that's only a few miles away but project managers don't want to be testifying in front of…

Maybe the construction industry or infrastructure need to find their analogue to “cloud” and “AI” so that when the heads of these departments from different states get together they can crow about how their contractors are using “smart” concrete and “smart” building techniques built with the assistance of DoT AI. Something to make them feel like they’re keeping up with the other state DoT Joneses.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#180

Post by BurningFrog » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:50 AM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #122

BurningFrog wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not at all claim there is no corruption. But look at your own quote: > There are plenty of [...] highways and bridges in China I think we agree that the infrastructure does get built!

China, especially a few decades ago, was so poor that eminent domain was a complete non-issue. Combined with a fairly authoritarian government system, building a train line faced basically no resistance. In the US, it's almost the opposite. The places where public transit is most needed are the most highly valuable, densely populated areas, where eminent domain is a nightmare. In the US, all of our highly populated a…

> * China, especially a few decades ago, was so poor that eminent domain was a complete non-issue*

This is a really weird framing of a system without any private property where people who got in the way of the government where slaughtered by the millions.

Yeah, it's improved immensely since 1989, but still. Let's not forget history. The killers are still alive.