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Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

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Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#131

Post by moltar »

aldoushuxley001 wrote: post #81
tomohawk wrote: post #36

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

Almost certainly they switched contractors because of corruption. Here in Montreal, it's well known that the mob runs the construction industry and quite frankly you're not allowed to even bid on contracts without their say so, otherwise you'll get visited for a very frank chat. So I can't speak for why infrastructure is expensive elsewhere, but atleast here in Quebec (& likely RoC) it's simply because of corruption.…

The worst part is we still have shit roads.

And this has been studied. The reason is simple. The pave mix uses used car engine oil instead of new bitum/oil. This leads to surface crumbling at much higher rate.

Yet everything is blamed on the winter and salt.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#132

Post by BubRoss »

smolder wrote: post #112
Analemma_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, even if this is true, it still doesn’t explain the cost difference between us and e.g. Japan. Construction firms and public infrastructure works in Japan have well-known ties to the yakuza, yet they still finish these at way lower costs than us (even though labor is more expensive!) Why?

Cultural differences: Japan is pretty homogenous and they seem to see themselves as part of a whole whereas in the US, for example, exploiting your fellow citizens for profit is almost a matter of duty in business.

Seems like a cliched and simplistic explanation to just waive away a large difference with 'culture'.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#133

Post by Thriptic »

j-c-hewitt wrote: post #85
BurningFrog wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China the purpose of infrastructure projects is to get infrastructure. In the US the purpose of infrastructure projects is to enrich everyone associated with the project.

Lots of people get rich in China and the railways, roads, and buildings get built. In the US people just take the money and don't build anything in a lot of corrupt states. In some states there is less obvious corruption and things get built more quickly. New York City and State are simply unusually corrupt by US standards and corrupt by global first world standards.

And yet Robert Moses managed to ram home some of the most ambitious public works projects the world has ever seen in New York, precisely because he was somewhat corrupt and could disregard process and opinion.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#134

Post by siphon22 »

BubRoss wrote: post #132
smolder wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural differences: Japan is pretty homogenous and they seem to see themselves as part of a whole whereas in the US, for example, exploiting your fellow citizens for profit is almost a matter of duty in business.

Seems like a cliched and simplistic explanation to just waive away a large difference with 'culture'.

Sometimes things really are that simple though. Why can you (most of the time) leave your bike outside a store you stop at in Japan but not in America? Because it isn't part of Japanese culture to take what doesn't belong to you, but is normal for a number of Americans. Why can you get relatively wholesome food at a 7-11 in East Asian countries while you get junk and trash at ones in America? Because Japanese people prefer real food over getting chips and a crappy sandwich for lunch. Why are nice public facilities possible in those kinds of countries and not America? Because those people don't wreck, vandalize, and spray grafiti on them, while Americans do.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#135

Post by NullPrefix »

tomohawk wrote: post #36

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

>The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved and the approach looked really good.

So in the end the contractor knew how to do it properly but decided not to fix the initial burnt batch? Is it really a surprise that they were not hired?

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#136

Post by TeMPOraL »

dqpb wrote: post #110
Anechoic wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is another way to think about that story: DOT and their proven, reliable contractor had experience with a certain method of rehabbing the joints between concrete slabs. A new technique was tried, and the first few attempts were not done well. The new technique showed promise, but there was a concern that if the new technique failed, there would be consequences to the state for trying a new technique rather than…

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a riskless option.

If the last decades of experience with government and corporate bureaucracies taught us anything, it's that one of the primary functions of bureaucracies is to route risk around. Every part of an organization is risk-phobic, so the risk accumulates in places where the people either can't effectively dump it on someone else, or they don't notice what's happening.

So e.g. here, by choosing an inferior but established method over a superior but new one, the DOT was routing the risk in the form of "they might rake us over the coals" away from themselves, and dumping it onto taxpayers in the form of "we'll pay more for it now, and even more when it breaks in a couple of years".

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#137

Post by h2odragon »

rsync wrote: post #121

I am fascinated to see that 3 hours, 109 upvotes and 107 comments into this story, the word "regulation" occurs only once in the comment thread. I own, jointly with others, a 3 mile long road. If there could be only two things that I impressed upon someone, in relation to this road, they would be the following: 1) You have no idea how costly maintaining a road (any road) is. I didn't. I had no idea . Whatever liberta…

3 miles? Awesome. Gravel or paved?

The Army Corps of Engineers gets involved because your ditches are wetlands, I'm going to guess. You might have a window open right now to redo them, best check.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#138

Post by Balgair »

tomohawk wrote: post #36

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

My SO did soil testing for the state for public works projects. Things like water retention rates, expansion, Atterberg tests, etc. It's incredibly basic stuff. Like, how much does the soil expand when it rains/snows? Over a few hundred miles of road bed, even small percentages will add up. In our state there are clays that will expand 4x their volume before water can no longer be absorbed. It turns out, the earth can be suprisingly active on a week to week basis, just from rain.

So, yeah, there is a LOT of corruption and incompetence out there. But we've figured out a lot about soils/rocks/dirt in the last 40 years or so too. It's that there is this deep perception in most people that dirt is well ... dirt. Like, it's dirt, it doesn't change or move.

So, you get issues where they pave the road-bed over just after a rain. And then the road dries out over 2 years and the entire road just breaks apart. Or you get the problem where the the pH of the soil wasn't tested, so the rebar in the concrete will corrode faster. Or they build another thing nearby and change the drainage patterns around your dam. It's not simple stuff to make a house or a 70mph highway that will last for 50 years without a lot of issues.

Honestly, it does take a PhD these days.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#139

Post by corodra »

afarrell wrote: post #60
daenz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The further you are removed from "other people" with regards to "other people's money", the easier it is to waste/pocket/embezzle. Fixing that problem would go a long way.

The solution to that problem in many places is currently to have lists of approved suppliers.

Yea, that's called gsa.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#140

Post by cestith »

thehappypm wrote: post #122
BurningFrog wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not at all claim there is no corruption. But look at your own quote: > There are plenty of [...] highways and bridges in China I think we agree that the infrastructure does get built!

China, especially a few decades ago, was so poor that eminent domain was a complete non-issue. Combined with a fairly authoritarian government system, building a train line faced basically no resistance. In the US, it's almost the opposite. The places where public transit is most needed are the most highly valuable, densely populated areas, where eminent domain is a nightmare. In the US, all of our highly populated a…

One of China's more ambitious solutions to this was newly founded, planned metropolises where no major city had previously stood.
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