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Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

nymag.com

81–90 of 221 posts

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#81

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

Almost certainly they switched contractors because of corruption.

Here in Montreal, it's well known that the mob runs the construction industry and quite frankly you're not allowed to even bid on contracts without their say so, otherwise you'll get visited for a very frank chat.

So I can't speak for why infrastructure is expensive elsewhere, but atleast here in Quebec (& likely RoC) it's simply because of corruption. See the recent woes of SNC Lavalin.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#82

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

> And this is not just a cost issue. Its estimated that failure to adhere to known safer pavement designs is resulting in 10,000 - 15,000 unnecessary deaths a year. That seems unlikely, if this was in a single state, considering only about 35k people die each year on the roads in the entire country.

Is it possible that the 10-15k figure includes a different way of counting? Pedestrians and bikes etc?

It would be good to see a source.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#83

A hard-to-capture cost factor is keeping highly used services operational or replaced while doing work on it. A super-fancy new subway with lots of stations in Shenzhen where people weren't already taking trains and expecting to use stations for their daily commute will be much cheaper than disrupting a line service to open a new station in London or New York City. Replacement bus bridge services, network-wide servic…

> Significantly more arbitrary middlemen making their way into the process because of "let the market figure it out" does, in fact, create some process inefficiencies in supply chains and contract pipelines. Few countries are as aggressively market-based for things meant for public good as the US.

It's kind of disingenuous to blame "let the market figure it out" for government contracting problems that are attributable almost entirely to political corruption.

Governments buy a million things from the private sector using contract bidding with reasonable requirements, and then the low bidding napkin vendor turns out to be Walmart or some direct napkin producer in the midwest, the state spends 0% of its overall budget on napkins, and nobody pays any attention to the successful process because it's 0% of the overall budget and there is nothing to complain about.

The problem is that it's all too easy for a corrupt politician to purposely add a contract requirement that only a specific contractor can satisfy, with the predictable consequences for the level of competitive bidding and the contract price. But that's not fundamentally any different than politicians pandering to government workers unions by "creating jobs" supervising people who are digging holes and filling them back in, even if they're all direct government employees.

The people receiving the money have a much larger incentive to spend their influence on that specific project than the average taxpayer, because it constitutes 100% of their income rather than 0.5% of their tax dollars, only then there are a hundred such projects and it looks like half the budget is waste (because it is).

The problem is probably made worse by the separation between revenue and spending. We have one institution in charge of generating money (tax collector) and then a hundred separate ones in charge of spending it, but the spenders aren't accountable for the money and there is a lot of buffer because the government as a whole can just spend more than it collects and issue debt to make up the rest of it. Which means there is nobody really in charge of making sure the taxpayer is getting good value for money in any given project.

What we could do is to elect the heads of the various government departments (e.g. transportation, education, law enforcement) and have them pull revenue from the same source (e.g. sales or income tax), but the tax rate is set directly based on how much money they actually spend. In other words, they set their own individual budgets, but they also have to individually directly answer to taxpayers. But the general legislature still has to approve the overall budget to keep any of them from getting out of hand.

Then if the head of transportation doubles the transportation budget to spend it on corruption and waste, leading directly to a 2% increase in the sales tax (and doesn't get vetoed by the general legislature), he's out on his butt in two years, and is more likely to actually end up in jail because now more people are paying attention.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#84

> The usual way you produce journalism or policy research on a technical question like this is that you hire someone with expertise in journalism or public policy to produce a report. That person calls up relevant experts and asks them to talk, for free, about their areas of expertise. This is one of the great perks of my job: I call up lawyers and other professionals who ordinarily charge hundreds of dollars an hour…

As other respondents have said, a good journalist does not rely on a single expert. Good reporting cross-checks multiple sources, often seeking out conflicting ones, and trying to form a coherent story out of that.

Unfortunately, that often leads to false dichotomy. It's not sufficient to seek out a contradictory source... especially if that contradictory source is not credible. But it's very exciting journalism to say, "We spoke to X and Y, who bitterly disagree with each other. We'll gloss over the fact that X has a PhD and the support of the entire community, while Y is funded by motivated donors and has been repeatedly debunked. We'll go to Y every single time because they only fund the one."

So yeah, journalism is in trouble. Not for reliance on experts, but for failing to rely on themselves when a story seems fishy... and for relying on the public to care about whether they have or not.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#85
post #12

A couple of facts that should at least provide a baseline for costs (like the best case scenario): Shenzhen metro: 198 stations, about 180 miles of track (soon to be more like 250 miles), majority of it built in past 10-12 years. All I can find so far on cost is the phase iii cost which says it will cost about 20 billion. Phase I was quite small. So maybe they have spent about 30 billion to get almost 200 miles of ra…

In China the purpose of infrastructure projects is to get infrastructure. In the US the purpose of infrastructure projects is to enrich everyone associated with the project.

Lots of people get rich in China and the railways, roads, and buildings get built. In the US people just take the money and don't build anything in a lot of corrupt states. In some states there is less obvious corruption and things get built more quickly. New York City and State are simply unusually corrupt by US standards and corrupt by global first world standards.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China the purpose of infrastructure projects is to get infrastructure. In the US the purpose of infrastructure projects is to enrich everyone associated with the project.

Don't kid yourself, there are people getting rich on those china projects.

They're also getting some really nice infrastructure in the process. I can't say the same for America these days.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#87

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

Almost certainly they switched contractors because of corruption. Here in Montreal, it's well known that the mob runs the construction industry and quite frankly you're not allowed to even bid on contracts without their say so, otherwise you'll get visited for a very frank chat. So I can't speak for why infrastructure is expensive elsewhere, but atleast here in Quebec (& likely RoC) it's simply because of corruption.…

Also explains the crumbling infrastructure of Montreal. The mob always needs more money to do the same work, sometimes many times more.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#88
I think the answer is in the first few lines actually.

>Here are the instructions Congress gave last March: Not later than 9 months after the enactment of this act, the GAO shall report to the House and Senate

>Sixteen months later, the GAO has produced its report and it doesn’t actually perform the cost comparisons as instructed.

Bureaucracy at its finest. Over promise, under deliver, and make sure its late too, just in case anyone thought there might be a competent system in play.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#89

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

Almost certainly they switched contractors because of corruption. Here in Montreal, it's well known that the mob runs the construction industry and quite frankly you're not allowed to even bid on contracts without their say so, otherwise you'll get visited for a very frank chat. So I can't speak for why infrastructure is expensive elsewhere, but atleast here in Quebec (& likely RoC) it's simply because of corruption.…

The thing is, even if this is true, it still doesn’t explain the cost difference between us and e.g. Japan. Construction firms and public infrastructure works in Japan have well-known ties to the yakuza, yet they still finish these at way lower costs than us (even though labor is more expensive!) Why?

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#90
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The California High Speed Rail was also corruption. It's all over everywhere, because nobody is accountable for it, except the people over-charging, while simultaneously pointing out that they are taking all the liability when things go wrong (and someone actually tries to prosecute).

Do you have any evidence of this? Building HSR is expensive and takes a long time to do. Tracks and other infrastructure for HSR has to be a much higher standard than regular train infrastructure.

> Building HSR is expensive and takes a long time to do

Bids and bonds have already been levied against those estimates. Even if you make up new ones to match reality, it was fraudulent in concept. With less than half the length (515km versus the proposed >1200km CA project), the japanese built a HSR for about 2.3 billion USD (adjusted from 1959 ~400 billion yen). From the start, this has been a doomed project to get some people paid. Admittedly, the idea of starting something (anything) to connect the top and bottom half of CA is perhaps visionary, selling it as a doable project was dishonest.

However it turns out, the CA HSR (or slow speed rail) will not be completed in the lifetime of anyone alive today, but Californians still get to pay for it. I'm reminded of Lyta's admission about the Vorlon mistakes in Babylon 5's Thirdspace movie. It's just compounded for the poor Californians, each time.

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