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Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

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Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#121

Post by rsync »

I am fascinated to see that 3 hours, 109 upvotes and 107 comments into this story, the word "regulation" occurs only once in the comment thread.

I own, jointly with others, a 3 mile long road.

If there could be only two things that I impressed upon someone, in relation to this road, they would be the following:

1) You have no idea how costly maintaining a road (any road) is. I didn't. I had no idea. Whatever libertarian fantasies you may harbor about private people coming together to create and maintain anything like first world infrastructure, I am sorry to dash them: we have a group of 20 or so rich, well-educated, smart and hard-working people and it's right at the edge of our capabilities to keep this 3 mile long road in semi-acceptable condition.

2) The difference between doing a safe, reasonable, environmentally responsible and long term fix and doing that very same fix but 100% by the book is a cost difference of 3x to 4x. There are minor drainage fixes we've looked into that required, no shit, the army corps of engineers to be consulted along with several other county and state regulatory and environmental agencies. After paying a third party firm to create an environmental impact report. Do you understand that I am talking about fixing a ditch ? The army corps of engineers.

I did not, above, refer to "excessive regulation" because I am not ready nor willing to define that and I don't want to take a political stand on it - I am merely pointing out that the first thought you should be having on this issue is: regulations.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#122

Post by thehappypm »

BurningFrog wrote: post #80
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That simply isn’t true at all. There are plenty of unused or underused highways and bridges in China that made a few red families lots of money. It’s fascinating to me that some people think corruption in China is lower than the USA. Not even the Chinese would make such a claim.

I did not at all claim there is no corruption. But look at your own quote: > There are plenty of [...] highways and bridges in China I think we agree that the infrastructure does get built!

China, especially a few decades ago, was so poor that eminent domain was a complete non-issue. Combined with a fairly authoritarian government system, building a train line faced basically no resistance.

In the US, it's almost the opposite. The places where public transit is most needed are the most highly valuable, densely populated areas, where eminent domain is a nightmare. In the US, all of our highly populated areas are already urban. In the past, that was certainly not the case in China, and to an extent, still so today.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#123

Post by thehappypm »

athenot wrote: post #98
rafiki6 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same principle applies here as with any software development effort. There are some natural bottlenecks that can't be avoided/parallelized (for e.g. waiting for a layer of asphalt to dry). Further, more people doing a thing doesn't mean it will get done faster. You have to contend with overhead of planning, context-switching and handover overhead between workers leaving/starting shifts etc. etc.

True but those constraints can result in more creative engineering. Look at this timelapse of a bridge getting replaced in 43 hours. They had the new bridge built next to the orignal and "just" moved it into place—I'm using quotes because of course that is an impressive operation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz_j_BEkVCQ

This does happen in the US where it's cost effective. The Tappan Zee Bridge was replaced by a new bridge built completely from scratch in parallel, then the old bridge decommissioned.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#124

Post by thehappypm »

jedberg wrote: post #102

Before we make a report on how our costs differ from other G20 countries, how about a report on how our costs differ from ourselves 100 years ago. In 1900 it took four years to lay nine miles of subway in NYC. The second ave tunnel was just a couple miles and under construction for 12 years. That's just an example. It also took longer to build the new Eastern span of the Bay Bridge than it took to build the whole bri…

In 1900 the population of New York City was a fraction of its population today and probably more importantly, cars were not widespread as the Model T had not even hit the market yet. It's bizarre to try to compare different eras.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#126

Post by WC3w6pXxgGd »

mratsim wrote: post #115
nisten wrote: post #74

The author briefly touched on how it's also expensive in countries with similar law-systems like Canada and Australia. It may just be that our laws make it a lot easier for contractors to jack up government contracts. My personal opinion is that managers and regulators in Europe and South Korea are a lot more efficient because they have a lot more freedom to apply common sense and personal judgement without fear of g…

As an European, I'm always surprised when someone says that our governments are efficient. We're always complaining about them.

People who've never lived in Europe think everything's better in Europe.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#127

Post by [deleted] »

nisten wrote: post #74

The author briefly touched on how it's also expensive in countries with similar law-systems like Canada and Australia. It may just be that our laws make it a lot easier for contractors to jack up government contracts. My personal opinion is that managers and regulators in Europe and South Korea are a lot more efficient because they have a lot more freedom to apply common sense and personal judgement without fear of g…

[deleted]

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#128

Post by golemiprague »

jp57 wrote: post #68

The best part of this thread is that the article is about why it's really hard to understand the cost differences, while the top comments all offer unsupported and anecdotal speculation explaining the cost differences in 200 words or less. "HN: Where dilettantes opine."

Because it is a bit stupid from the writer to complain about it, you don't need to know the absolute cost of things, just the relative cost a specific procedure can be done. He brings an example for the amount of people operating a boring machine, it is just obvious that less people means less salaries, you don't need to calculate the absolute cost, just find if there is a way to reduce the amount of workers. Same goes for regulations, it seems like in other countries there is less litigation and more common sense applied, you can just compare it to being strict and going to court for every stupid thing and see what's better.

The HN crowd is actually right here, when you got a too complex system that you can't calculate you need to go with your gut feeling and everybody actually know what the problems are, someone should be courageous enough to just make the necessary changes without a stupid research to back it up, in an ironic way doing this research is actually the core of the problem itself.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#129

Post by nsxwolf »

Anechoic wrote: post #69
tomohawk wrote: post #36

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

Here is another way to think about that story: DOT and their proven, reliable contractor had experience with a certain method of rehabbing the joints between concrete slabs. A new technique was tried, and the first few attempts were not done well. The new technique showed promise, but there was a concern that if the new technique failed, there would be consequences to the state for trying a new technique rather than…

We should still be talking about this. That story fascinated me. If the media went into more detail on infrastructure beyond stories about how it's crumbling or who in congress does or doesn't want to pay for it, that could really make a difference.

I would watch a nightly news show called "Infrastructure Tonight" if it existed.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#130

Post by moltar »

afarrell wrote: post #60
daenz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The further you are removed from "other people" with regards to "other people's money", the easier it is to waste/pocket/embezzle. Fixing that problem would go a long way.

The solution to that problem in many places is currently to have lists of approved suppliers.

Well that clearly doesn’t work. Montreal is a perfect example. So much corruption on that list.
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