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About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

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Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#171

Post by guilhas »

elefanten wrote: post #91
guilhas wrote: post #82

Some notes * French yellow vests are ignored week after week. This is all over the place. * HK already has extradiction with the USA. * USA debacle demanding a journalist extradition to prosecute. * Protesters posters are in english. * Mainstream narrative, small HK will be successful independent. UK brexit will be terrible because it will be a insignificant country.

This is a very solid round-up of what faceless accounts have been spamming all over Twitter since this story emerged. These arguments are weak enough to strain credulity. Almost all of them can be answered by saying "the context is very different" 1. Yellow Vests - no overlap in what is being protested. Dissatisfaction with policy vs dissatisfaction with fundamental political rights = very different context. 2. Extra…

Those were not arguments, it is what I see and might consider fact. That I would like people to give their opinions or just think about it.

USA is law abiding? It is the country with more prisoners global and per capita. Doesn’t look good. And Guantanamo? Patriot act? Also not when bombing other countries. They have shown more than once USA powerful are above the law.

Perhaps they should not accept extradition to China and also rescind to USA.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#173

Post by macspoofing »

chaz6 wrote: post #169

I strongly believe that the people of Hong Kong should have the right to self-determinism. There is nobody alive who has lived under Chinese rule in Hong Kong. For reference, I am British. I hope that someday Hong Kong can be recognized as a country in its own right.

As do the people of Tibet. Tough being under the umbrella of an autocratic up-and-coming superpower. Hong Kong has no chance of achieving independence anytime soon.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#174

Post by hker »

confusedhnguy wrote: post #162
hker wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give due credits, the Hong Kong people put great effort to ensure that the protests--both the Umbrella protest in 2014 and the anti-extradition protest in 2019--are peaceful, largely because they don't want to turn Victorial Park into another Tiananmen Square--there are 6000 PLA troops stationed in Hong Kong, and they will come out once the Hong Kong police loses control of the situation. Hong Kong people learned…

While I agree with your other words, is the last paragraph really necessary? If you want us mainlanders to trust you, it is advisable to not praise Japan when it is not directly related to the conversation. Mainlanders are also perfectly capable of doing it, although we are not doing as good as we can. https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-tra... Downvote me all you want, I still support your democ…

Thank you for your honest reply, I just upvoted you.

> While I agree with your other words, is the last paragraph really necessary? If you want us mainlanders to trust you, it is advisable to not praise Japan when it is not directly related to the conversation.

I agree that the last paragraph is not necessary. But I did learn something from your reply to my last paragraph.

I personally separate the Japanese people we see nowadays from the wartime Japan under militarism, and I think this sentiment is popular among the recent generations in Hong Kong (and perhaps in Europe and US, etc). Older generations in Hong Kong, who experienced the Japanese occupation, think differently, understandably.

So to a Hong Konger like me, praising Japan does not have any strings of nationalism attached. It is like praising the spice in Thai food (and this is irrelevant to whether we like Chinese food, or China). And that's why I am being over-insenstive here, and I could have done better.

Likewise, most of Hong Kong people could separate mainland people from CCP.

> Mainlanders are also perfectly capable of doing it, although we are not doing as good as we can.

> https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-tra...

Thanks for letting me know something I was not aware of, and I sincerely praise those mainlanders for their effort. Keep up with the good work.

As your linked article also suggests, Japan is leading the world in cleaning after themselves, that's why I gave credit to them.

And back to the protest, I mention that Hong Kong people are cleaning trashes in protest [1], because I disagree with the "riot" charge by the government [2], which could result in a maximum term of ten years.

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c18ybh/protester_...

[2]: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/13/hong-kong-protesters-c...

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#175

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

manigandham wrote: post #38
swjz wrote: post #18

They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

This is nothing but a temporary delay. It will still be passed soon enough. Remember Hong Kong is on a 50 year countdown anyway so there’s always an inevitable end coming.

"The current social and economic systems in Hong Kong will remain unchanged, and so will the life-style. Rights and freedoms, including those of the person, of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of travel, of movement, of correspondence, of strike, of choice of occupation, of academic research and of religious belief will be ensured by law in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. Private property, ownership of enterprises, legitimate right of inheritance and foreign investment will be protected by law."

http://www.gov.cn/english/2007-06/14/content_649468.htm

China needs the West and it is politically unsavvy for China to renege on the rights granted before 2047. However, the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat the Joint Declaration as "void".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#176

Post by markdown »

pimmen wrote: post #111
guilhas wrote: post #82

Some notes * French yellow vests are ignored week after week. This is all over the place. * HK already has extradiction with the USA. * USA debacle demanding a journalist extradition to prosecute. * Protesters posters are in english. * Mainstream narrative, small HK will be successful independent. UK brexit will be terrible because it will be a insignificant country.

France has a democratic system, Hong Kong has no democratic way to get rid of Lam. USA has due process, the right to council and many other fundamental human rights. Most of the posters are in Chinese. Brexit will be worse for the UK economically, leaving China would be good for HK democratically. And, also, the UK has an enshrined right to leave thanks to article 50, HK does not have that right at all.

> USA has due process, the right to council and many other fundamental human rights.

Surely you jest. USA practices extraordinary rendition, torture, and assassination of their own citizens without trial.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#177

Post by barry-cotter »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #120
trappist wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sort of thing predicted by Hans Hermann Hoppe's "Democracy: The God that Failed", the basic premise of which is that short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed

> short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property The evidence shows the opposite. Political leaders (in any system) want to act in the short term. Democracies simply constrain them. No “lifetime leaders” are guaranteed a life term. They must co…

> No “lifetime leaders” are guaranteed a life term. They must continuously fight for political survival. (And with that, often, actual survival.) Dictatorships deploy, with limited constraint, their immortal nation’s power on mortal time scales.

A dictator that survives the first two years is more likely than not to die in power. Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, The Logic of Political Survival. That’s not a guarantee of lifetime tenure but it’s pretty good, and you don’t get to be dictator, or last the first two years without being excellent at the fight for political survival.

Regarding mistakes and bad decisions democracies may be a bit better than dictatorships but it’s not a massive difference. When democracies go to war they mean it. Dictatorships are a lot more likely to realise they made a mistake and back down.

Democracy’s saving grace is in the proportion of the population that has power over politics, nowhere else. Dictators are great at pleasing the people they need to please to stay in power, it’s just that’s less than 10,000 people, sometimes less than 1,000.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#178

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

dharmab wrote: post #125
geophile wrote: post #31

How is it they are not fucked? No country that wants to continue to do business with China is going to back this uprising. Is there an imaginible sequence of events that doesn't result in either capitulation or a violent crushing of dissent?

They're actually succeeding- the government has backed down and apologized. The protests are pushing on for the resignation of the Chief Executive. Keep in mind this new extradition law also applied to foreign, non-HK/CN citizens visiting Hong Kong legally. Companies operating in HK _really_ did not want this bill, either,

I don't think we can conclude the long-term intent from backing down now. It could be simply kicking the can down the road. Beijing might just be waiting to try this later. The longer they wait, though, the riskier it gets to push the Socialist system onto Hong Kong. It seems more and more citizens are willing to defend Democracy than has been the case in Hong Kong's past. If the numbers are correct, this is more protestors than the Umbrella movement.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#179

Post by hker »

hker wrote: post #174
confusedhnguy wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your other words, is the last paragraph really necessary? If you want us mainlanders to trust you, it is advisable to not praise Japan when it is not directly related to the conversation. Mainlanders are also perfectly capable of doing it, although we are not doing as good as we can. https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-tra... Downvote me all you want, I still support your democ…

Thank you for your honest reply, I just upvoted you. > While I agree with your other words, is the last paragraph really necessary? If you want us mainlanders to trust you, it is advisable to not praise Japan when it is not directly related to the conversation. I agree that the last paragraph is not necessary. But I did learn something from your reply to my last paragraph. I personally separate the Japanese people we…

(Could not edit the parent comment for one more remark)

> I still support your democratic movements. But if you truly want mainlander to hear your voice, talking about how good Japan is is counterproductive.

Thank you for your support, and for the honest opinion. It is important for us to understand how you think. I hope we can understand each other better with enough communication.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#180

Post by XuMiao »

pimmen wrote: post #103

I live on the other side of the world, but this still strikes a deep chord with me. I'm Swedish, born and raised in Gothenburg. After the Umbrella protests in 2014 five people connected to the Causeway Bay Books store in Hong Kong disappeared. One of them is a naturalized Swedish citizen, his daughter was raised in my home town. He is now imprisoned and can't communicate with his daughter, or with the Swedish authori…

CCP does have a lot of room to improve in protecting human rights. But to be fair, for the matter of national security, every country takes the extreme measure. Look at the Assange case. Neither Swedish nor US government makes any sense to me.
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