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About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

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Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#91

Post by elefanten »

guilhas wrote: post #82

Some notes * French yellow vests are ignored week after week. This is all over the place. * HK already has extradiction with the USA. * USA debacle demanding a journalist extradition to prosecute. * Protesters posters are in english. * Mainstream narrative, small HK will be successful independent. UK brexit will be terrible because it will be a insignificant country.

This is a very solid round-up of what faceless accounts have been spamming all over Twitter since this story emerged.

These arguments are weak enough to strain credulity. Almost all of them can be answered by saying "the context is very different"

1. Yellow Vests - no overlap in what is being protested. Dissatisfaction with policy vs dissatisfaction with fundamental political rights = very different context.

2. Extradition with rule of law abiding country that isn't explicitly trying to silence your dissidents = very different context.

3. Assange situation is complex and one-off, and the charges are more complicated than just reporting on stuff. It is also being openly discussed, scrutinized and will be prosecuted openly in a legal system. What routinely happens with dissidents and party critics extradited to China is very different.

4. HK was under British rule for a long time and there is a large English-speaking base.

5. Narrative about HK has to do with categorically different political / economic freedoms than the mainland. There's subtlety beyond a comparison like "what will be the bigger GDP"

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#92

Post by seanmcdirmid »

dymk wrote: post #5

Every article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a better way to affect change in their government. I sincerely hope that a non-violent protest gets these people the change they want, but I take real issue in framing violent protests as unnecessary when your historically oppressive government refuses to listen to the wil…

The American Revolution was basically a violent protest and is widely celebrated. One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#93

Post by baybal2 »

javagram wrote: post #19
dymk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Beijing is just going to send military force if they perceive something that will truly threaten change in HK, but they did not send anything, what does that tell you about the probable outcome of these non-violent protests? I think the protestors are fighting the good fight, but I'm not holding my breath that anything will actually come about because 2 million people stood in the street.

Violent protest that is not “actual revolution” doesn’t bring change. It just leads to fighting in the streets as the parent said. compare the violent protests that ignited the Syrian civil war (actual revolution) to the violent protests that resulted in no actual revolution (Rodney King riots, yellow vests in France, etc) to consider the difference, I think.

There is little distinction. One leads to another.

If you can dig news in well, you know that Syria began with some bakers protesting flour price hike and them roughing up some policemen.

A lot of revolutions stared with public disturbance events which had only tangential relation to political context, with Russian revolution being the best known example

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#94

Post by seanmcdirmid »

loyukfai wrote: post #41
dymk wrote: post #5

Every article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a better way to affect change in their government. I sincerely hope that a non-violent protest gets these people the change they want, but I take real issue in framing violent protests as unnecessary when your historically oppressive government refuses to listen to the wil…

As others have pointed out, HK government is not historically oppressive, physically speaking. So if the protesters initiate violence without being provoked, mass opinions may change real quick. IMO we better consider this on a case-by-case basis. If non-violent protests can and will work in more places in future, why not?

It got pretty bad in the late 60s, ironically with pro Mao demonstrators during the cultural revolution (which had some spill over into HK).

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#95

Post by GordonS »

loyukfai wrote: post #72
swjz wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that the government should release all protesters arrested. I actually don't care about the difference between "suspension without timetable for restarting" and "retraction" because even if the government had completely retracted the amendment, they could draft another amendment anytime anyway.

Yes, but many of the HK protesters, somehow, became obsessed with the terminology. It's part of a broader war between the government and the opposing faction.

I don't think this is quibbling over terminology - "suspending" is a temporary measure, and governments being governments, there's every chance it would be "unsuspended" once the protesters melt away.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#96

Post by seanmcdirmid »

briandear wrote: post #8
dymk wrote: post #5

Every article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a better way to affect change in their government. I sincerely hope that a non-violent protest gets these people the change they want, but I take real issue in framing violent protests as unnecessary when your historically oppressive government refuses to listen to the wil…

Violent protests brings out the tanks and people start dying literally in the streets. Unless you are talking about actual revolution, violent protest accomplishes nothing and results in losing the moral high ground which is critical if one is to have international support. Violent protest in Hong Kong would result in Beijing sending in soldiers to suppress the rebellion under the guise of “public safety.” You get ma…

China has learned a lot since 1989, not necessarily the best lessons, but they at least have a well trained non lethal anti riot force (part of the PAP) and wouldn’t resort to the PLA unless as a best last resort even in mainland cities. One of the tragedies of 1989 is that China basically had no non lethal anti riot capabilities.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#97

Post by khuey »

guilhas wrote: post #87
digianarchist wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese and English are both official languages of Hong Kong under the Hong Kong Basic Law (article 9) and the Official Languages Ordinance (chapter 5 of the Laws of Hong Kong).

But are they protesting for the Chinese to listen or the English?

Given that the whole thing is being censored in the mainland by the PRC's government, why would they be protesting for the Chinese to listen?

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#98

Post by hker »

eqing wrote: post #50

People at both sides think they are legit. An average HKer: I don't trust China's Justice system, which is heavily influenced by their government. I could be sent to China for made-up crime. An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british). Imagine the same case for Hawaii and US Mainland.

Thanks for letting us know how you think.

As with other legislation, the devil is in the detail.

> An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british).

Such simplification--Hong Kong has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not China--is not useful in understanding laws.

I would cite below a point made by Leung Kai Chi (in Chinese [1], Question 6 there), translation mine (+ Google Translate):

> 6. But some Western democracies will also sign a transfer agreement with the Chinese government? > > Yes, but the situation in Hong Kong is different. First, when other countries and the Chinese government sign a transfer agreement, they generally stipulate that they will not be transferring to their nationals. However, under the Hong Kong Ordinance, both residents who are born and raised in Hong Kong, or those who only transfer at the Hong Kong airport, can be detained and handed over. Second, democratic countries have election supervision. If the government misuses the handover procedure, it will be punished by the voters. The chief executive of Hong Kong is appointed by the central government. Even if the transfer procedure is misused, it is difficult to open up the responsibility. Thirdly, precisely because the Chief Executive of Hong Kong is appointed by the Central Government, the handover arrangements in Hong Kong cannot be compared with other places. Leaders of other countries can independently assess whether a suspect should be handed over to mainland China. The Chief Executive of Hong Kong is responsible to the Central Government in accordance with the Basic Law and cannot make independent decisions. Under the framework of this system, all administrative examinations under the responsibility of the Chief Executive are tantamount to a false statement.

[1]: https://medium.com/@leungkaichihk/%E5%8F%8D%E9%80%81%E4%B8%A...

The whole article (in Chinese) is worth a read.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#100

Post by y2kenny »

guilhas wrote: post #87
digianarchist wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese and English are both official languages of Hong Kong under the Hong Kong Basic Law (article 9) and the Official Languages Ordinance (chapter 5 of the Laws of Hong Kong).

But are they protesting for the Chinese to listen or the English?

the world, because the CCP hasn't been listening.
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