Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#171

Post by michaelscott » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:07 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #82

nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Was American science declining in the 1960s when almost no Chinese students were in American universities? Could there also be extremely smart people in Africa that might now find a place in American universities? Are there Americans that might now find a place in American Universities? I am not saying anything about visa policies, but suggesting that limiting Chinese students will hurt American science is a pretty n…

The world today is very different from the 1960s, particularly regarding both the US and China. I have absolutely no doubt that there are unbelievably intelligent people in Africa now, just as there were (and of course are) in China and everywhere else where people exist.

The lack of infrastructure, support and adequate living conditions is all that severely limits them from reaching their potential and they know this, which is why they climb the Everest of bureaucratic hurdles to get to a place like the US. China is a unique case because it has become wealthy (enough) very quickly and critically also has a very large population, which statistically increases the chances of very intelligent people appearing given the right conditions; if 1% of a billion population is very intelligent that's 10 million people in real terms.

I don't think the US has the dominance it did in science like it did in the 60s, when Europe and Japan were still recovering from war and China was still poor. I think the loss of a large number of Chinese students would certainly have an affect on the US's development in science today.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#172

Post by imafish » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:09 AM UTC

theklub wrote: post #162

tjeannin wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Europe is home to 1.64 million researchers, while the US number approaches 1.47 million. ... Europe produced 33.4% of the world's research outputs, while the US accounted for 23.4%." The US is not really leading the way. It's a bit strange to "consider" Europe as a potential good place for research, it's already way ahead the US.

Europe's population is double what the US is...

Well, the number of researchers obviously isn’t

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#173

Post by mattmanser » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:16 AM UTC

inflatableDodo wrote: post #159

Tsubasachan wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its fascinating how America is slowly turning into a country that simply doesn't want foreigners. Sadly I like New York so I have to diligently go through the mountain of paperwork. How many people from the EU overstay or cause problems for the police?!

Brits overstay and work in the US without the correct paperwork all the time. They don't seem to get noticed by the police for some reason.

I know a Brit who is banned for life from America for not having a visa when he got searched on a bus. Maybe he had a fake permit or something too, I can't remember.

Maybe they're less likely to get searched/caught, but when they are it seems to be enforced. I can't find any stats supporting either position though.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#174

Post by ekianjo » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:16 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #49

ekianjo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . If they further hamstring themselves by excluding Chinese students, the decline of American science will accelerate dramatically it is a strange assumption to make since by all counts the US is already the country in the world with the most diverse population. It is not as if science is only the work of students or even in particular foreign students...

The US has a massive advantage in science (and business) in that many of the best and brightest from across the world want to come to the US, despite the hurdles and issues of getting student visas or work visas. This means that as a country you don't have to pay for the primary and secondary schooling of all these people, but you get to reap the rewards of them working in your country and contributing to your scient…

primary and secondary education costs virtually nothing compared to college so thats a pretty weak point to make.

You could make the exact reverse point, that universities in the US have built their expertise over decades if not centuries and Foreign students are largely benefiting more from them than whatever they could get in their home countries.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#175

Post by chmod775 » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:28 AM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #12

In 2013, the number of Chinese students returning to China after graduating hit 90%. [1] It used to be more like 9 in 10 would remain in the US to work. If foreign graduate students are staying and working in the US, it’s probably a net benefit hosting them in US schools, even though it drives up demand and therefore tuition costs for US citizens. If 8 or 9 out of 10 are returning to China, better to keep the spot fo…

What do you recommend the EU should do with all the US students that come here to study for basically free, because they can't afford it back home?

We have like 5000 Americans studying in Germany alone. Do you think we should send them back home because they're not gonna work here anyways?

Do you not believe someone should give those young people an education just because they deserve a chance in life?

Can we not do things on principle sometimes instead of having to justify everything with economics?

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#176

Post by mrhappyunhappy » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:36 AM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #167

tntn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60-80% of graduate students in STEM fields in the U.S. are international students. It seems like having 60-80% fewer graduates would accelerate the decline of American science.

The schools might have to let natives in; the horror. We might have to return to the dark ages of the 1950s when the STEM graduates were majority Americans and we actually were making technological progress in something other than lithography. "Science" is addicted to cheap foreign labor, which has ruined the market for natives.

Who are these natives you speak of? Last I checked we are a nation of immigrants. If not you then your parents, grandparents and their parents.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#177

Post by cltsang » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

Tsubasachan wrote: post #142

nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Its fascinating how America is slowly turning into a country that simply doesn't want foreigners. Sadly I like New York so I have to diligently go through the mountain of paperwork. How many people from the EU overstay or cause problems for the police?!

How did you get that impression? From what the article says America is only getting more conscious about foreigners from China, not foreigners in general. They are quite different.

This is hardly a surprising move considering the recent realization that the Chinese government has been pushing propaganda against American values like freedom, democracy, and basic human rights, on American soil. One notable example is confucius institutes [0].

[0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2019/01/1...

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#178

Post by ashelmire » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:38 AM UTC

tntn wrote: post #47

ekianjo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . If they further hamstring themselves by excluding Chinese students, the decline of American science will accelerate dramatically it is a strange assumption to make since by all counts the US is already the country in the world with the most diverse population. It is not as if science is only the work of students or even in particular foreign students...

60-80% of graduate students in STEM fields in the U.S. are international students. It seems like having 60-80% fewer graduates would accelerate the decline of American science.

Don’t most of them return to their home countries? Seems like freeing up those spots for American students that will stay would be a boon for American science.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#179

Post by dmos62 » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:39 AM UTC

onetimemanytime wrote: post #166

inflatableDodo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brits overstay and work in the US without the correct paperwork all the time. They don't seem to get noticed by the police for some reason.

China is causing problems for USA. Right or wrong, USA thinks that they are essentially educating their future battle enemy.

That's an over-generalization. No country is one entity in the context of "what it thinks".

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#180

Post by onetimemanytime » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:47 AM UTC

dmos62 wrote: post #179

onetimemanytime wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is causing problems for USA. Right or wrong, USA thinks that they are essentially educating their future battle enemy.

That's an over-generalization. No country is one entity in the context of "what it thinks".

Well, someone makes that decision. Today is Trump and his advisers (if he listens to anyone :)) and Congress. No polls or votes are taken on things like banning Chinese students or not.

Frankly, I don't think we should educate anyone that goes back to a hostile country. China is rising, and that can cause a lot of problems for us, see China Sea for one. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/03/china-army-colonel-says-beij...