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Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

nytimes.com

171–180 of 249 posts

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#171
post #158
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

If I put a gun to your head and say "Your wallet or your life," are you free? If I lay a trap, and you fall into it, and I offer to release you if you give me your bank details, are you free? If it's a disaster and I charge $10000 for a bottle of clean water, are you free? If a society requires you to work in order to live but only offers you poor options for work, are you free? We generally talk as though, as long a…

If you live in a universe of scarce resources, are you free?

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#173
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The labor market is never free, because living isn't free - almost every participant is coerced. Your actual post is mostly reasonable arguments, but this premise is not realistic. This is stretching the word 'coerced' to the point where it doesn't mean anything. The fact that resources are limited and we need the average person to add about as much value as they consume is not coercion. It is a (very sad) fact. Th…

> Are these people born with "only allowed to work as a car driver" stamped on their forehead? Did you see what I said about poverty traps? Once someone is stuck, it's very challenging to break out without outside help. > The difficulties of moving between industries are real, I'll acknowledge them and say maybe there is a role for the government to facilitate this aspect. However, as a practical point, I don't think…

> There is no need to regulate unethical employment practices when laborers have the freedom to seek employment elsewhere - the market can sort it out. But we need freedom of horizontal movement first.

And yet even in the supposedly so competitive SV tech market, abusive practices like forcing employees to sign arbitration agreements, at-will employment (can be dismissed with zero notice or severance and for no or any reason not prohibited by law), "unlimited" vacation that is really meant to discourage you from taking it, and long workweeks with no overtime pay are common.

Who doesn't get to deal with any of the above? Union employees (for the most part).

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#174
post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

> really hard to do because of catch 22 To expand on what mrtksn means: in the UK, it is difficult to get a bank account without proof of address. It is also difficult to rent a flat without a UK bank account. There are a few ways around this: - Have a friend put you on their water bill and use this as proof of address. I suspect this is illegal. - Join a flatshare without getting on the lease, pay for your portion o…

I am curious if a hack exists to have an account in a bank in UK if you use the same bank in another country. For example, if you are a software developer with a good salary being an HSBC Premier customer can be easy in developing countries, you then go to places like US and they treat you like an HSBC Premier there where you just need to show you are a customer in another country and they use your overseas address as a proof to open the account.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#175
If you read it closely, the article basically says "We don't really know what is going on, in part because our survey isn't really designed to capture data on the gig economy."

I have done gig work for over six years. At the moment, I am working more like a traditional entrepreneur, but I can do that in part because I have the security of gig work to fall back on if I can't drum up enough clients. If I could get the kind of job I want, I would take it.

That last statement is a relatively recent development. I have health issues and doing gig work made it possible for me to have some earned income under really challenging circumstances where that really should not have been possible. Being able to access earned income while I'll and homeless allowed me to work on improving my health, allowed me to make working in my health a priority in a way that regular employment would not have facilitated.

I think this is the real revolution that isn't being talked about. Having a serious career requires you to have your act together in many important ways. You need energy, mental focus, some idea of what you like doing and are good at, etc. Gig work gives people options for muddling through or supplementing your income during difficult transitions.

Some years ago, I read a comment that was an A-ha! moment for me. Instead of attributing recessions to mysterious forces somewhere out there in the ether, it attributed them to human nature. It suggested we get lazy and complacent during good times, then work hard to get back on track after things start coming apart at the seams.

I am sure there are also large scale forces impacting people, but I dropped out of college in part because I knew people with college degrees and student loans who were mooching off of relatives and delivering newspapers. I felt I could deliver newspapers without a degree and would be better off for not being saddled with debt. It was very clear to me at the age of 20 that the "promise" I was hearing that a degree was a guaranteed ticket to a serious career and the good life was a myth. There is more to career success than getting X credential.

Large scale trends are not just the result of public policy at the federal level or real world phenomenon like Peak Oil. They are also the cumulative result of many individuals making choices.

The gig economy provides some fluidity and flexibility for workers who are handicapped, have a health issue, are having trouble breaking into their chosen career etc. Yes, I am aware that if gig work is all that is available, this can be a serious problem. But, in the other hand, another observation someone made that was an epiphany for me is that layoffs are part of the price we pay for having stable corporate jobs for some. When there isn't enough work to go around, someone gets shafted because of it. There is no magic way to make that not happen.

I'm aware there are people being shafted here. I think in the US, they are being shafted much more by our lack of universal health coverage than by gigs lacking benefits per se.

Sort of rambly. I don't have a specific point per se. More like thinking out loud, I guess.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#176
post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

> really hard to do because of catch 22 To expand on what mrtksn means: in the UK, it is difficult to get a bank account without proof of address. It is also difficult to rent a flat without a UK bank account. There are a few ways around this: - Have a friend put you on their water bill and use this as proof of address. I suspect this is illegal. - Join a flatshare without getting on the lease, pay for your portion o…

What worked for me was going to a HSBC branch in Australia and opening a Uk account before I left.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#177

For most people (not highly sought after programmers), its an erosion of what paltry remnant of their workers rights remains. Last time wealth inequality peaked, the robber barons had strike breakers and whatnot. This time (with wealth inequality continuing to soar to historically unprecedented heights) they have the 'gig economy'.

Did you even read the article? Gig economy isn't taking over, it slightly declined from 2005.

I read the bit where the statistics deliberately excludes people who do it in addition to their regular job so e.g. folks renting out a spare room on airbnb don't count but that is definitely work.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#178
post #5

It did reshape it. Turns out you can offload your costs to your 'employees' that hardly will organize and project costs and earnings to the future (like a competent business). I've talked with bunch of car sharing drivers who were bamboozled with car loans, get hit by traffic infractions, costs of maintenance and the list goes on and on. I feel that the gig economy preys on people who have not developed that risk man…

and what would these same people do instead? you’re pretending there’s some much better job out there waiting from the uber is preventing them from taking

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dead-end job is still a job. Unemployment rates are historically low. In the future, most people will become “gig” workers of some sort due to ubiquitous automation.

Giving everyone a job is not, and should never be, the goal of a society. In the early twentieth century American workers were killed fighting for the right to support themselves working 40 hours a week but for much the population that option has evaporated. I know people in the bay area working 70 hours a week at dead end jobs barely making ends meet; a fact I consider unacceptable given the wealth they are surround…

> I know people in the bay area working 70 hours a week at dead end jobs barely making ends meet; a fact I consider unacceptable given the wealth they are surrounded by.

By what means is this unacceptable? "I find myself working 40 hours a week to afford cable and a new iphone. I consider that unacceptable given the wealth I am surrounded by."

Those two statements are qualitively equivalent. Because you move to a nicer neighborhood, you shouldn't have to put up with things other people put up with? Huh?

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "dogma" You have a dogma yourself. that's ok, just be aware that you have one, and are espousing one. > "Then get them to acknowledge that the free-market argument is a model that needs to be backed by empirical evidence to be accepted as actually describing reality instead of being just an untested hypothesis." The free market is one of the most tested ideas out there. > "They use things like unions and government…

It's ironic. The free market requires a form of socialism to actually work. Education, Infrastructure, Military, etc. All socialistic enterprises funded by the general fund. Free enterprise does not work without a socialistic framework to support it. For a pure unregulated free market see Ethiopia.

> It's ironic. The free market requires a form of socialism to actually work.

Its not ironic, the requirement is called rule of law, and its a foundational stone from the philosophers that brought that royalty and religion from the State. The recognition of private property has been recognized as a necessity from the get go in classical philosophy and economics.

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