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When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

economist.com

171–180 of 362 posts

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned elsewhere, doesn't this article sort of refute the idea that women don't negotiate salary well if their pay for the same rank/role is just 1% different than that of their male counterparts?

True, but it could support the idea that women don't negotiate for promotions as well or as often. Or that they are less likely to be promoted in general, for whatever reason. Whether the underlying reason is innate personality, socially-conditioned personality, or sexism, this seems like the simplest explanation for why the pay gap looks the way it does.

That definitely seems possible. I have also read some interesting stuff around how women tend to end up a few years behind their male counterparts due to child care, maternity leave, and them choosing not to take less demanding positions to spend more time with kids. There is a lot in there to unpack and you could still argue it is a societal discrimination thing (women are expected to do more child care duties), but that is not an argument supporting pay discrimination at a corporate level, but more of a societal shift that has to happen between child rearing partners. I don't know if this matches up with data and studies, but just logically, it is inevitable for a woman to have to take at least a little more time out than a man due to the biology of child birth and child rearing.

I think all of this points to women not attaining the same rank/position as the key factor in gender differences, not a discriminatory pay gap.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#172
post #158
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you agree that negotiation skills don't matter for most jobs? And do you agree that people should be compensated based on the value they bring to a job? Because sexism or no, I think it's a tremendous problem when people get ahead for completely tangential reasons to their job performance and skills.

How is it sexism is sex is not a factor?

It is a factor.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#173
Women don't advance in rank as fast as men, and so end up being paid less. Thus article doesn't refute that because it admits that level is factor in the pay gap.

As to why women don't advance as fast ... my opinion is that it's primarily motherhood that does it. It puts a career on hold for 6 months times the number of children, and women are socially expected to be primary caregivers so they feel pressured not to work long hours (and so advance less). Before they get pregnant employers will suspect impending motherhood and offer fewer opportunities so as to rely less. It's not fair, but it is how it is.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#174
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't capitalism about the use of capital to control and manage markets? If I will £5m on the lottery and then set up a company investing that money am I worth the 4% a year I should (probably would) make? The value of your teachers (or lack of value) will only become apparent over time - a long time. The value of your doctor may become absolute to you, several times over your life. God forbid that you or yours fall…

While I never said societies should implement full 100% free market capitalism, all the problems that you mentioned cannot exists in that system. Free uninterrupted competition will destroy people/companies overpricing their services or force them to compete as well => lower their prices. Basically, offering poor/expensive service in capitalist system will naturally invite competition until the optimal price/value po…

I think that your argument depends on perfect markets - perfect flow of information and 100% market efficiency (no transaction costs) and also perfect computability as in the capability for all actors to compute the optimal clearing of the optimal transaction system for the transaction at hand.

I am pretty sure that teaching and medicine are the kind of good that would break these rules - political implementation, people and markets or no.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#175
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point is that the way society systematically undervalues women-dominated professions is sexism at work. What? Can you explain how that is possible? As far as I know, people value things according to what value they obtain from them. There is no way for that to be 'sexist'. People are paid according to the value they produce. To call that sexist is just completely inconsistent with any reasonable conceptio…

"They're not underpaid because they're women, they're underpaid because they're being paid by a bureaucracy." That's a theory. The relevant question is, what evidence exists to support or refute that theory?

The fact that male teachers are equally underpaid, pretty clearly.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#176
post #97

The "for the same work" piece of it rings hollow and is fighting a battle that didn't need to be won. It's enough to get across the point that women are socialized into lower paying roles and held back professionally because of child care obligations. My daughter is four. Her summer camp has all sorts of course choices every week. So I signed her up for "little engineers," "little scientists," etc. (There was also pr…

"These are four year olds, they have no preferences. It's purely parents projecting gender roles onto their kids." Without litigating this specific case in any detail, I just want to argue more generally that of course 4-year-olds (and much younger) have gender-based preferences and that there is loads of research confirming this. It's remarkable that this is considered even remotely controversial.

I'm talking about preferences regarding science camp versus princess camp (or a chemistry degree versus an English degree). My daughter is incredibly gender normative. Everything is pink and frilly and she refuses to wear pants. But she has no idea that science is for boys.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#177
post #155
post #59

It hardly seems like a fair measure of pay gap if you don't take into account disparities in promotions. At the same level, company and function the pay gap is small. Yet, women are stuck in lower-ranked positions in greater proportion for some reason.

Perhaps it is because many women put their career advancement on hold if they choose to have children?

There's another way to frame that... too few men put their career advancement on hold when they choose to have children. Instead of sharing the burden, society expects a disproportionate sacrifice from women.

Typical example: Nobody asks a male CEO or politician who is staying home to take care of the kids.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#178

Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…

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Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#179

Personally I think the biggest caveat avoided "when job differences are accounted for" is the care of children. Women, by-and-large, really get hosed with the negative externalities of having children (time off, career halting, etc). Most Western countries are not generous or equitable by half, and the USA is downright savage.

Sure, women who take time off to raise kids will take a hit to income. In a married family, the husband compensates. If the woman is unmarried, she gets child support/alimony to make up the difference. So, either you're arguing that child support/alimony is too low, or that married couples get hosed with the externality of having children. This is recognized in law, and people with children get tax deductions, and if…

The giant issue with this argument is that the state of being married/single/having children/etc. is not a fixed state. If a woman who is married takes a hit to her income (and thus all future income) when she has children and is later divorced, has her spouse pass away, or other life event that changes her status, the burden of that inequality is again placed on her. Child support is difficult to collect, social safety nets are not an answer to the quality of life gained by earning a certain amount.

I don't have answers to these questions, but the long term economic burden of children will more often than not fall to a greater degree on the woman should there be any deviation from the social norm of a nuclear family.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#180
post #89
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Women have the same opportunity to negotiate that men do. The fact that they choose to negotiate less is on them.

Do you agree that negotiation skills don't matter for most jobs? And do you agree that people should be compensated based on the value they bring to a job? Because sexism or no, I think it's a tremendous problem when people get ahead for completely tangential reasons to their job performance and skills.

I agree it's a problem. But it's women's problem. If they want to get ahead - start negotiating. It's not incumbent upon society to bend over backwards to facilitate every subgroup's predilections. Salary negotiation is a necessary part of the job market. It performs a useful and important function - price discovery. It is not sexist if women are maladapted to it.
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