When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears • Hacker News Board

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#121

Post by nsxwolf » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 8:59 PM UTC

johnnyb9 wrote: post #33

mathperson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. But it isn't really subject to market forces the way software engineering is. A better teacher doesn't bring in more revenue and profit for a public school. Most teachers work in public schools. I am not disagreeing with you in general (I am not taking a stand either way) but this is a pretty silly example.

So they are valuable, so long as you don't value them with money.

Male teachers face the same issue. But really, salary is only one component of what they are paid.

Just about any teacher that survives to an old age will beat me earnings wise with their pension, which they don't have to fund. I have to fund my own 401K or IRA, as well as pay into the teacher's pension fund with my property taxes.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#122

Post by abritinthebay » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 8:59 PM UTC

rch wrote: post #56

abritinthebay wrote: post #9

Generally speaking the problem isn't that individuals get paid less. It's systemic issues - which are harder to fix. For example: women as a whole are less likely to be in higher paying jobs in STEM roles. Or CEOs. Or high level Politicians. Why? Multiple reasons but the overall point is there is institutional and social pressure (mostly unconscious or learned) for women to avoid those fields. So the average gets low…

You should at least consider the possibility that intelligent, charismatic women may not be as willing to pursue 'STEM roles' as equivalently advantaged men. If someone is able to teach occasional yoga classes, do little PR work, and still travel internationally 3 months out of the year... who is to say that is less desirable than a full-time, higher paying job?

I did consider that. It’s directly addressed in my comment.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#123

Post by illuminati1911 » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 9:00 PM UTC

johnfn wrote: post #79

illuminati1911 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And job differences are individual decisions. We can finally stop the "women are being paid less/discriminated ...yadayada..." -horseshit. Teaching is done/funded by the society in most cases and paid with tax dollars. Some jobs being "underpaid" or paid too much are problems that come from the lack of real capitalism where everybody would be paid their actual market value and we could remove the whole word "underpai…

> And job differences are individual decisions. What? So you became a (I assume) programmer due to yourself alone? You didn't have any help learning how to use a computer from your parents, you didn't have any encouragement of your peers to continue, you weren't influenced at all by society and how it favors certain behaviors, no good teachers helped you learn the requisite math or science or critical thinking? It wa…

I don't know why you care about anecdotes, but if you do:

I became a software developer because I though computers were interesting. My friends called me a geek. My father tried to stop me because he wanted me to work in a construction industry LIKE THE REAL MEN DO. My mother wanted me to become a lawyer because it is a respectful profession unlike being a nerd. For about 10 years my parents continuously tried to prevent me from using computers and told me to "go outside and play" etc.

So did I become a construction worker or a lawyer? Nope. Did I become a software engineer? Yes. How? Individual decision. I make my my own decision in life. Sometimes definitely influenced by others, but so what? If I get influenced by them it's my responsibility to handle it in the proper way and look for other opinions too. People pretend to be a weak and try to shift responsibility to other people/society deserve no pity.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#124

Post by gaius » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

johnfn wrote: post #93

cisanti wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then what do you say to all the men who either die or lose their health doing difficult and dangerous jobs, often for peanuts? If you can't prove me men teachers are being paid more, your argument is invalid. Women choose very different careers and that's fine, but the choice is there.

> If you can't prove me men teachers are being paid more, your argument is invalid. Teaching as a profession is underpaid, and I don't think that teaching being dominated by women is a coincidence.

Teachers are paid way, way more than soldiers or firefighters or refuse collectors or miners or meatpackers...

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#125

Post by johnchristopher » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #85

JimboOmega wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, imagine a scenario where women are initially not in the labor force. But they want to work, same as anyone Then, one day, society changes. "You can work, but you can only be a nurse, teacher, or secretary". You don't think there'd be a supply glut driving down wages in those areas? Suppressing them over a long period as women gradually enter the labor force there? And by the same token, that society that says y…

Are you insinuating that women - today - are forced into that narrow set of professions if they want to work?

Why the emphase on `forced` and `today` ?

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#126

Post by UncleMeat » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #85

JimboOmega wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, imagine a scenario where women are initially not in the labor force. But they want to work, same as anyone Then, one day, society changes. "You can work, but you can only be a nurse, teacher, or secretary". You don't think there'd be a supply glut driving down wages in those areas? Suppressing them over a long period as women gradually enter the labor force there? And by the same token, that society that says y…

Are you insinuating that women - today - are forced into that narrow set of professions if they want to work?

Certainly that was the case in the past, and cultural inertia is real. This allows inequities and biases to persist over time. So although women are not forced to choose teaching, for example, there are more teaching role models who are women and culture nudges women towards that career.

This causes the persistent inequity in career pay that was caused in part by the original influx of women into the field when explicit sexism was rampant.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#127

Post by sumeno » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #90

Others wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is gender roles. Women are taught by society to think that, as women, they should go into certain careers. These careers, like teaching, tend to be lower paid than the careers men are encouraged to go into.

"taught by society" feel free to source that in a way that can be proven. The assertion is just pseudo intellectual excuse making. Society is NOT telling women to NOT be sanitation workers. Society is not telling women not to work on offshore oil rigs. Society is not telling women not to be surgeons but to in fact be veterinarians. Society and "gender role" excuses don't hold up to reality. Time to accept that the wo…

I don't see how you can possibly claim that society doesn't discourage women from pursuing "manly" careers. By the same token men are discouraged from pursuing "feminine" careers.

If a man says they are going to work on an offshore oil rig they are much less likely to get societal push back than a woman because it is seen as a normal thing for a man to do but not a woman.

If a woman is an elementary school teacher it is considered completely normal, whereas men are often looked down upon for doing so. The same happens with male nurses.

How can you read all the stories about sexual harassment in our industry and not think women are being discouraged from pursuing careers in tech?

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#128

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

johnfn wrote: post #93

cisanti wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then what do you say to all the men who either die or lose their health doing difficult and dangerous jobs, often for peanuts? If you can't prove me men teachers are being paid more, your argument is invalid. Women choose very different careers and that's fine, but the choice is there.

> If you can't prove me men teachers are being paid more, your argument is invalid. Teaching as a profession is underpaid, and I don't think that teaching being dominated by women is a coincidence.

Why do discussions like this always avoid any talk about market value? Teachers are paid relatively less because its not hard to become a teacher and there are a lot of people willing to do it.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#129

Post by disiplus » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

bitexploder wrote: post #71

oldboyFX wrote: post #11

Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…

As mentioned elsewhere, doesn't this article sort of refute the idea that women don't negotiate salary well if their pay for the same rank/role is just 1% different than that of their male counterparts?

my wife does not know how to negotiate, multiple times have i said to her that she should fight for more, but she will not or does not know how to do it.

but there is also another side. women that i have worked with have used social norms to ask for more. like in some conversation make a joke about how they deserve promotion and pay incrase, like hehe im such a great team member/worker i deserve a pay incrase, wink wink, and such comments multiple times. I never heard a man use this method. If its from a man then he asks to speak to you and directly says what he wants.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#130

Post by ar-nelson » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

bitexploder wrote: post #71

oldboyFX wrote: post #11

Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…

As mentioned elsewhere, doesn't this article sort of refute the idea that women don't negotiate salary well if their pay for the same rank/role is just 1% different than that of their male counterparts?

True, but it could support the idea that women don't negotiate for promotions as well or as often. Or that they are less likely to be promoted in general, for whatever reason. Whether the underlying reason is innate personality, socially-conditioned personality, or sexism, this seems like the simplest explanation for why the pay gap looks the way it does.