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When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

economist.com

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Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#21

Post by coldtea »

carlmcqueen wrote: post #8

This rigged need to prove the same work is being paid the same always rings pretty hollow for me. In my first corporate job I was the most technical employee by far, I did the work of far senior roles because my managers were wise to use a lot of my technical skill to get complex work done all the while having HR tell me I didn't have enough years and experience to have the higher paying job title. Just because someo…

>This rigged need to prove the same work is being paid the same always rings pretty hollow for me.

That's not about "the same work being paid the same" in general. Individual businesses can pay more or less for the same tasks, even the same business can pay people differently for the same task. Senior employees might be paid more while junior employees do all the real work, etc. Those things are true.

But this article is not about that, it is about whether on average women and men are paid the same for the same jobs.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#22

Post by darawk »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

> The whole point is that the way society systematically undervalues women-dominated professions is sexism at work.

What? Can you explain how that is possible? As far as I know, people value things according to what value they obtain from them. There is no way for that to be 'sexist'. People are paid according to the value they produce. To call that sexist is just completely inconsistent with any reasonable conception of economics to my understanding.

EDIT: In your edit you added the example of teaching. And that is, fairish. I'd grant you that teachers are underpaid, but that isn't sexism, it's a consequence of the structure of our education system. They're not underpaid because they're women, they're underpaid because they're being paid by a bureaucracy.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#24

Post by mathperson »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. But it isn't really subject to market forces the way software engineering is. A better teacher doesn't bring in more revenue and profit for a public school. Most teachers work in public schools. I am not disagreeing with you in general (I am not taking a stand either way) but this is a pretty silly example.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#25

Post by swift »

overcast wrote: post #16
rexpop wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't men take these hiatuses?

Good luck getting paternal leave in the US.

Yep. And this reinforces the social expectation that women take leave when they have children and men do not, which leads there to be less institutional support for paternal leave. It's a cycle.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#26

Post by kazinator »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

I suspect many people understand the "pay gap" as being that women get paid less for doing the same work with the same qualifications as men.

Whereas the socio-economic dynamic of women being driven by various forces, at play throughout their lives, into lower paying jobs (in which men are also paid less), which is what you seem to be writing about, is something other than "pay gap".

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#27

Post by klipt »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

Teachers make more per hour than doctors, when you factor in benefits like pension and not having huge medical school loans: http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#28

Post by Others »

darawk wrote: post #22
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

> The whole point is that the way society systematically undervalues women-dominated professions is sexism at work. What? Can you explain how that is possible? As far as I know, people value things according to what value they obtain from them. There is no way for that to be 'sexist'. People are paid according to the value they produce. To call that sexist is just completely inconsistent with any reasonable conceptio…

The problem is gender roles. Women are taught by society to think that, as women, they should go into certain careers. These careers, like teaching, tend to be lower paid than the careers men are encouraged to go into.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#29

Post by cubecul »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

I don't share your embarrassment. There's a significant chunk of the country that doesn't understand the issue - they think the claim is about blatantly discriminatory practices. In some cases, I'm not sure that even the people who do advocate for solutions to the pay gap truly understand what the core issue is. Both of this caused by the way all of this has been worded.

Worth clarifying all of this as much as possible to work towards putting everyone on the same understanding of the situation.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#30

Post by dsacco »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

In what way is teaching underpaid?
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