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What was Syria like before the war

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Re: What was Syria like before the war

#171

Post by euyyn »

toyg wrote: post #110
mafribe wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure in what sense your answer is a constructive contribution. There is a long history of engineering 'grassroots movements' toward overthrowing governments. All powers have been engaging in this practise, and you can find how-to manuals -- I recommend reading some, it's highly enlightening. For example many of the de-colonialisation movements in the second part of the 20th century were actively run by the So…

And even before that. A few examples: - Lenin famously had to ride a train through half of Europe to get back into Russia and stir up trouble. The involved countries knew very well who he was and what he was going to do (he was under surveillance, like most activists before and since), but they let him pass in order to help destabilise a neighbouring power. - Italian unification was aided by the British, which contro…

> - The Spanish civil war was heavily influenced by foreign powers, with Germany and Italy instigating and materially supporting Franco, the USSR helping the Republic, and everyone else providing covert support for this or that faction.

There's a pretty high jump from "Hitler helped the rebels during the war" to "the Civil War was orchestrated and triggered by foreign powers".

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#172

Post by euyyn »

mpfundstein wrote: post #61
RandVal30141 wrote: post #4

"I wish there were more definite sources detailing what the actual conflict is about. " The death of Hamza Khateeb[1] comes to mind. Political and civil unrest was already underway, but the open violence against civilians including children sent Syria down a path. The government butchered that child among others caught for demonstrations or showing dissent. "The attitude of the government against the people of Syria…

Why would the Syrian government torture and mutilate a 13-year-old boy and then return the body/proof to the parents ? Same with the current gas-bombs. What is the rationale behind this besides being pure evil? Assad made great progress in Syria and is pushing back ISIS and Al-Nusra. There was no strategical need for dropping gas but still, he apparently did... why would he? Doesn't make sense to me...

> Why would the Syrian government torture and mutilate a 13-year-old boy and then return the body/proof to the parents?

The obvious possible motive is to send a signal that that's what happens if you oppose the regime. Your kid disappearing isn't as strong a message as receiving his corpse in pieces.

> There was no strategical need for dropping gas but still, he apparently did... why would he?

There was strategical need to drop bombs, even Assad and Putin acknowledged that. Why not gas? The lesson from the previous gas attack a few years ago, whether or not he did it, was that he could get away with it.

And there's been ethnical cleansing going on on both sides in that region. So it isn't the most surprising thing either.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#174

Post by watwut »

palerdot wrote: post #119
lefstathiou wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find interesting about the Syrian issue is that it is becoming increasingly clear that diplomacy, the UN, media exposure etc is failing. Despite this "humanitarian crisis" (which I fully agree is reaching crisis levels), my impression is that almost all the media outlets and pundits are ignoring the obvious solution to this problem... unilateral US military intervention (and before we go there... keep in mind…

If you think bad guys are sitting in glaring colourful robes for the US military to come and shoot them, you are way off the mark. Political crisis like this are difficult to contain by external players because you never know the good guys from bad. Maybe US (and other powerful nations) can stealthily fund the locals and arm them to face the radicals, so that the change comes from within rather than outside. Again th…

"Maybe US (and other powerful nations) can stealthily fund the locals and arm them to face the radicals"

That sort of activity usually ends with local radicals having externally find arms. Also, it hardly counts as change from inside when you armed one fraction of the conflict giving it advantage.

Innocent locals tend to be the ones who don't want guns, sadly. Or are not experienced with them.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#175

Post by ashark »

Udik wrote: post #153
ashark wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> state sponsored or otherwise pushing an anti-humanitarian cause. What's the anti-humanitarian cause? Throwing enough resources at the fight to keep it going for years instead of weeks/months, but not enough to actually end it, for what I hope are callous realpolitik reasons and not simple incompetence?

You hope that the international actors- among which, prominently, the USA- have willingly fuelled a bloodbath for years for "realpolitk" reasons instead of having done that unwillingly, out of incompetence?

I hope that there's been some hidden benefit I'm unaware of that's so large it could from some point of view that's not simply insane or stupid justify fueling a massive immigration crisis in Europe, with all the consequences that've fallen out of that, and causing years and years of suffering and death in countries halfway around the world from us while in many ways strengthening the radical jihadist movement(s), yes.

The alternative is that we've been too dumb, for years on end, to just stop, or else that we've done it because we made a (huge) mistake initially and are trying to save face, both of which I judge to be somewhat worse.

Iraq may have been more expensive but this is shaping up to be a much bigger strategic blunder, if there's not some really smart hidden agenda driving it. It's certainly a massive humanitarian disaster. I've found it utterly bizarre that in all the partisan bickering this didn't take central stage in the "Obama (and Hillary) aren't fit leaders" narrative, since on the surface the whole thing looks like a gigantic policy disaster on the part of the US—and I feel that way as someone who almost always supports Democrats over Republicans, and protested Iraq II. I don't get how more blame for the situation isn't publicly falling on the US and the Obama administration.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#176

Post by knz »

punkrex wrote: post #158
knz wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also the pipeline/Syke-Picot people will interject themselves into any conversation about the middle east because "this one simple event explains everything" is appealing to a ton of folks. Do the "Sykes-Picot people" attribute everything to that agreement or just view it as a logical starting point for many of the current political problems seen in the Middle East that can not be attributed to other factors (geogr…

I dislike it personally because it robs any agency on the part of the locals and ascribes everything happening because of Westerners. I think the simplistic view presented in textbooks is wrong. Sykes-Picot never really came into effect and as much as the British/French tried to control the area their attempts at control were co-opted by savvy local nationalist parties to establish local nation states after the colla…

Fair enough - as you indicate, nuance is important and sadly it's often lacking from many media articles and debate these days.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#177

Post by jopython »

Kluny wrote: post #17
madiathomas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't mobile only. I visited it using Chrome Version 58.0.3029.110 (64-bit) on Windows 10. Works fine.

Version 58.0.3029.110 (64-bit), except I'm on a Mac. Is it possible they've got a bug that misidentifies Mac browsers?

The site didn't work for Chrome on Ubuntu either with the same version. Firefox on Ubuntu worked though.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#178

Post by gm-conspiracy »

easilyBored wrote: post #142

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.

Democracy is working great in the US though, right?

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#179

Post by gm-conspiracy »

easilyBored wrote: post #169
ta_qwerty wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The time will come when Westerners stop pretending Democracy is more important than a roof over your head and food on the table. All the praise in the world for North America and Western Europe for managing do develop with democratic governments, but China, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore and others are there to show that prosperity reaches a broader definition than liberal democracy. Developing countries need growth, n…

The saying is "A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch" By democracy I mean a system where basic human rights are protected and cannot be voted out. Would most Saudis, in a fair vote, allow for Catholic Churches to be open here? If the answer is no (and I think it is) then democracy is bad. Same for women rights, criticizing their faith, gay rights etc.

So majority rule is bad if you don't agree with the majority?

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#180

Post by ep103 »

6stringmerc wrote: post #107
peterlk wrote: post #80

Meta-commentary: This is one of the more fascinating threads I have seen on HN. It seems to parallel many of the problems with political discourse in the world today - maybe it's always been like this, but I'm not old enough to know. I would break down the comments into several types: 1) conspiracy theorists who believe in some secret cult that is unilaterally organizing everything 2) trolls - state sponsored or othe…

It's not easy, but it's pretty simple. Longer attention spans, and not treating all opinions as equally reasoned and/or valid. We are in the midst of a terrible anti-intellectualistic & dirt-kicking-religious-fundamentalism conundrum globally. Education is the only atmosphere where growth is the only goal - every human enterprise involves winning and losing, more or less. In the context of Education, the goal is self…

Wealth inequality is higher than its been in quite a long time. Massive numbers of people feel that they aren't being represented in government, which at its root, is usually accurate (1). This results in distrust of economic elites.

Since economic elites are usually also leaders of establishment, it is easy for ire for one camp, to bleed over to the other. Especially since talk of economic inequality rarely finds its way into (American) public discourse.

Once you adopt that mindset, it is easy to become jaded. At that point, anything elitist or intellectual starts sounding suspect and untrustworthy.

I swear, 99% of the issues in this country (us) boil back to wealth inequality one way or another.

1 - https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

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