The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared • Hacker News Board

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#171

Post by SwellJoe » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #169

SwellJoe wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't explain it, at all. Corporations wanting the legislation to be secret until it is a done deal is not a surprise. But, to assume that corporations are the stakeholders who matter and who should have access to the secret deals being made, is fundamentally incompatible with democratic ideals. The "explanation" is exactly what I am arguing against. The explanation assumes that the only people who should get…

I'll link this comment which explains the reality of the situation much better than I can: https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/35mers... There is continuous nonsense repeating "secrecy" when the reality is you or I have no business nosing around in international treaty negotiation since we are in no way qualified, so having some kind of open vote from everyone in the world during the negotiation pha…

"There is continuous nonsense repeating "secrecy" when the reality is you or I have no business nosing around in international treaty negotiation since we are in no way qualified"

Who says? Why shouldn't international policy be something we, as a nation, talk about while it is being constructed rather than being given an all or nothing ultimatum at the end of the process (and given effectively no time to inform ourselves enough about what it contains to make effective demands of our representatives)?

Why should economists outside of the government and outside of the corporations the government serves be disallowed from reading the damned thing and commenting on it while there is time to alter its course?

All this notion about it being secret because "reasons" or "that's how it's always been" is, once again, oligarchic bullshit. It is saying: You'll shut up and take what we give you.

"Fast track" legislation is often used to pass legislation that legislators know will be unpopular or be challenging to pass if given time for sufficient discussion at a national level. Just because it's been done many times before doesn't mean that it should continue to be done that way. We live in an age where every person can become as informed as they want to be about legislation like this, as long as they are permitted to see it.

Again, the arguments for maintaining secrecy and then rushing it into law are anti-democratic. There are, of course, reasons many people want it to be secret, but those reasons aren't in the interests of the nation or the world as a whole.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#172

Post by dang » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:21 PM UTC

kobayashi wrote: post #88

>Jade Helm Found the /r/conspiracy subscriber

This is a form of personal attack. Those are not allowed on HN.

We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10363873 and marked it off-topic.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#173

Post by res0nat0r » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #171

res0nat0r wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll link this comment which explains the reality of the situation much better than I can: https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/35mers... There is continuous nonsense repeating "secrecy" when the reality is you or I have no business nosing around in international treaty negotiation since we are in no way qualified, so having some kind of open vote from everyone in the world during the negotiation pha…

"There is continuous nonsense repeating "secrecy" when the reality is you or I have no business nosing around in international treaty negotiation since we are in no way qualified" Who says? Why shouldn't international policy be something we, as a nation, talk about while it is being constructed rather than being given an all or nothing ultimatum at the end of the process (and given effectively no time to inform ourse…

If you read the linked post it already describes that everyone and their brother chiming in with their uneducated opinions would not be helpful and would cause the process to be even more inefficient and drawn out than it already is.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#174

Post by dtroja » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 10:26 PM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #93

dtroja wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, I understand many people viewed that one training event with skepticism. I'm not going to try and change your mind. I would, however, like to address the idea that "training for training's sake" has no value. Tough, frequent, realistic training is exactly what is required to keep certain parts of the military prepared. I'm not talking about logisticians or acquisitions types. Personnel turnover is a pro…

I agree with everything you've said except the last paragraph. Training the troops is important! Too bad the knuckleheads in power did nothing to explain or justify the size/scope/location of the exercise, maybe it would have been worthwhile. Sounds like you think it would have been okay though. Want to sell me on rolling tanks, helicopters, and troops through town? Can they fire their guns and cannons (with blanks)?…

Ed, great question. It would be absolutely unreasonable (...and not being a lawyer... I would suspect illegal... but I don't really know) for tanks, helicopters, and troops to "roll... through town." I also agree that you touched on the key failing in that training event: poor explanation to the national audience of the scope of the event.

The military has many places to train. There are places to shoot. There are places to blow things up. There are places to maneuver tanks. There are few places which include a civilian population.

That event was a training event for parts of SOF community; a community which is operating in over 100 countries at any given time. Very few of those countries are in active conflict... by that I'm referring to a shooting-war. These types of units must be prepared to perform their tasks in a peaceful environment without undue notice. Units are typically small; think less than 15 people with maybe 2-3 civilian-style vehicles. They operate dispersed over large areas. They don't have tanks. When such units move around, they are usually in non-military vehicles and attire. For this kind of unit many tasks are related to interacting with people, either local security forces (police and military) or local civilians. There is a legitimate need to train on such tasks.

These types of training events focus on the military tasks which need this kind of a training environment (large area, dispersed operations, civilian population). Training for tasks related to shooting and blowing things up happen in areas the military 'owns.'

I highly doubt any of the training plans included detonations, live-fire, or even dry-fire events anywhere outside the normal military training areas. It's more likely that the interactions with the actual civilian population would have been completely un-noticed. An interaction would more likely look like a strangely fit group of guys were putting fuel in their Toyota and then drove away... maybe making a few jokes with you while you both wait at the pump. Almost certainly the same (or less) level of impact as your average Reserve or National Guard unit driving around on a weekend.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#175

Post by dtroja » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #118

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just training for training's sake? That's nonsense. I'm...seriously baffled as to what confusion of ideas would lead you to say something like this. Do you not know what the word "training" means?

You're right, that's not a complete thought. "Does the need to train troops for urban combat provide enough justification for the military to conduct realistic exercises in actual US cities?" is how I wish I had written that.

I hope my other comment sufficiently addressed that "urban combat" was not the task being trained in that exercise. There are places the military trains for "urban combat" ... Main St. USA is not it.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#176

Post by jodrellblank » Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 10:42 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #102

ddingus wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>I'm wondering how long before we have government-sanctioned libraries, languages, and chipsets that we may develop for. "You there! STOP!" "Huh?" "We've got you on record for bootstrapping, machine code, and compiler writing!" "so?" "That's a threat, and you are going to have to come with us and register." "Register for what?" "As a weapon. We need to know where you are and who you associate with..."

I doubt it will go that bad, but I wouldn't be surprised if the end result of the War on General Purpose Computing will be laws limiting access to turing-complete machines to licensed software engineers. For everyone else, playing with a compiler will be illegal.

"heart cells: interact in a way allowing logic gates and hence are Turing Complete" - http://www.gwern.net/Turing-complete

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#177

Post by SwellJoe » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 1:10 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #173

SwellJoe wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is continuous nonsense repeating "secrecy" when the reality is you or I have no business nosing around in international treaty negotiation since we are in no way qualified" Who says? Why shouldn't international policy be something we, as a nation, talk about while it is being constructed rather than being given an all or nothing ultimatum at the end of the process (and given effectively no time to inform ourse…

If you read the linked post it already describes that everyone and their brother chiming in with their uneducated opinions would not be helpful and would cause the process to be even more inefficient and drawn out than it already is.

I read it. And, then I disagreed with it in a couple of comments.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#178

Post by fapjacks » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 1:50 AM UTC

yrro wrote: post #124

walterbell wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those pre-TPP cases are nothing compared to the future combined scope of TPP (Pacific), TTIP (Europe) and RCEP (China, Korea, India, and other Asian countries). Never say there is nothing you can do. Tell other people about ISDS. Share the videos [1][2][3][4]. Jon Oliver's video [4] about the Philip Morris tobacco ISDS lawsuit against Australia (for brown paper packaging) caused such an outcry that TPP negotiators we…

Whenever I think about this for more than a passing moment I just become so scared and angry. How the fuck is a company able to take a country to court over a public health measure? Who the fuck voted for the evil bastards who made that possible? How do they fucking live with themselves?

Easy. Sociopaths. They are insect minds wrapped in human skin. Wolves in sheep's clothing if there ever was such a thing.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#179

Post by quanticle » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 2:38 AM UTC

drewgross wrote: post #162

quanticle wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be open for review, but not for modification. Thanks to "fast-track", Congress will just get an up-or-down vote. So, no, the final provisions won't be secret before they become law, but it doesn't matter at this point. Congress doesn't have the ability to say, "We'll take the good, but not the bad."

A country can't sign part of an international treaty. They must agree to whole thing, not only the parts they like. Leaving it open for modification would essentially mean reopening negotiations, which is a good recipe not never getting any trade agreements signed. Regardless of whether or not you agree with this particular trade agreement, SOME trade agreements are good, and forcing them to happen in the open with e…

You're making my point for me. Countries can't sign part of a trade agreement, which is why it's doubly important that trade agreements be negotiated in public, so that we, as citizens, have adequate time to consider and propose changes.

Re: The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared

#180

Post by EdSharkey » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 5:57 AM UTC

dtroja wrote: post #174

EdSharkey wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you've said except the last paragraph. Training the troops is important! Too bad the knuckleheads in power did nothing to explain or justify the size/scope/location of the exercise, maybe it would have been worthwhile. Sounds like you think it would have been okay though. Want to sell me on rolling tanks, helicopters, and troops through town? Can they fire their guns and cannons (with blanks)?…

Ed, great question. It would be absolutely unreasonable (...and not being a lawyer... I would suspect illegal... but I don't really know) for tanks, helicopters, and troops to "roll... through town." I also agree that you touched on the key failing in that training event: poor explanation to the national audience of the scope of the event. The military has many places to train. There are places to shoot. There are pl…

I feel like your last paragraph there is an attempt to subtley troll that went too far. If not, then I'd love for you to cite your sources for such speculation (beyond the original JH 15 powerpoint, which has to be intentionally vague regarding scope and specifics regarding an operation which hasn't yet taken place).