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Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

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Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#161

Post by babygoat »

exstudent2 wrote: post #148
fixermark wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is recommending a repeal of the First Amendment. At best, the conversation is about whether orgs like Reddit have any obligation (moral, business, or otherwise) to allow people screaming racial or ethnic slurs to stand on (metaphorically speaking) their property and use their megaphones. Usenet still exists, and nobody is stopping people from using it. It's just not where trolls go to be heard anymore, because…

When the value of that property is determined entierly by the size and engagement of the community using it (a community that gathered largely around the ethos of Free Speech), it's not necessarily a smart thing to attack them. It's quite trendy now to push the meaning of censorship all the way back to a legal definition around the first amendment and say things like private companies can't censor people. That's simp…

> Reddit was born on the spirit of freedom of speech

Was it though?

"back when I was running things, if there was anything racist, sexist, or homophobic I'd ban it right away. I don't think there's a place for such things on reddit. Of course, now that reddit is much bigger, I understand if maybe things are different." http://www.vox.com/2015/7/15/8967721/reddit-yishan-wong-elle...

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#162

Post by DanBC »

curiousjorge wrote: post #99
DanBC wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt. Why do you think your comment is relevant to this thread?

What makes you think that kind of vulgar racial slur (even if it's a reference) is excusable? By referencing it you've added to that voice.

Parent comment says that people call mild, polite, disagreement trolling. This thread is about Pao calling out trolls. It's pretty fucking important to make people realise that this is not polite disagreement about some obscure topic, but that it is very many people leaving posts that are little more than "Pao is a cunt" or using racial slurs.

It's weird that you object to the racial slur but ignore the sexual slur.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#163

Post by fixermark »

facepalm wrote: post #40

Where can you actually still have an uncensored discussion on the internet?

USENET, via email, via your own server, via a blog you host on your own server.

But those solutions (a) take effort and (b) implicitly decrease your potential audience because you aren't piggy-backing on some other organization's social networking. So it's understandable why people who get their jollies on upsetting other people would prefer an easier solution for them, like Reddit letting them say whatever they choose to unhindered because "Freedom of speech."

I'm 100% in favor of people who want to talk about topics Reddit has rejected setting up their own competitor. Maybe it will even become as big as Reddit. It's happened before.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#164

Post by istvan__ »

babygoat wrote: post #141
istvan__ wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly right. Reasoning ends when the feelings start. I am not even sure if I understand -btw. usually attributed to religious people- the concept of getting offended. If somebody says something you don't like and you don't want to hear just walk away, close the tab, delete the email.

What is the point of interacting with other people if you don't feel anything?

Gaining knowledge for example. What is the point of interacting with others if you continuously offended?

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#165

Post by lingben »

keedot wrote: post #91
lingben wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." - Ralph Waldo Emerson edit: although tangentially relevant, this case in Canada is hair raising: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/christie-blatchfor...

Christie Blatchford's skew is quite heavy in this reporting. I've seen the other side of the argument with some of the behaviours and tweets in question, and it's not so clear cut. I would definitely feel harassed by this individual, and in Canada, we do not claim to have the free speech as defined in America. Hate speech is not tolerated here, and most Canadians are in agreement with this. You can have a difference…

'hate speech' has a very high bar and from the court details there is zero evidence that the defendant engaged in anything remotely approaching harrassment, never mind hate speech.

by their own admission and by the evidence, the plaintiffs however did engage in a pattern of behavior and organized others into the same pattern which resulted in a person not only being harassed but also losing their job.

it is not enough to say, 'I feel harrassed' or 'I feel hurt' - that does not meet the legal test. You have no right not to be offended.

by the token of 'feelings', I could say that your response is 'hate speech' towards me and that I 'felt' harrassed and I 'felt' that my personal safety was in jeopardy.

If I were to claim that, I should rightfully be pointed in the direction of a mental health professional, not a court of law.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#166

Post by georgemonck »

tdees40 wrote: post #22
brotoss wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just defined SJW

SJW is just a lazy slur. It's time to retire it.

What word would you use for a left-wing activist who aggressively wants to name and shame, or purge, or get fired, or get banned, any person on the right who crosses a certain line? These types of people exist, is is a real phenomena, so it needs a name.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#167

Post by lcswi »

ewzimm wrote: post #133
lcswi wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally support that, but the Internet is probably the worst and hardest place to try initiate that change. Opposed to the real world, wannabe bullies have zero chance of seeing a reaction from their victims if those do not react. Online bullies like there DO lose their interest. Just look at past outrages on reddit to see. People need to despise that these short-term hype shitstorms are not worth reacting to'. May…

I definitely think the solution has to be deeper than banning people from forums. People exhibiting sociopathic tendencies have needs that aren't being met in their real lives. They most likely need therapy, counseling, or community support. They might have abusive home lives. The online harrassment issue is a big warning sign that there are deep social issues all over the world that aren't being addressed, but every…

That is a post worth bookmarking/screenshotting for future reference. Thank you, well said!

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#168

Post by exstudent2 »

babygoat wrote: post #161
exstudent2 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the value of that property is determined entierly by the size and engagement of the community using it (a community that gathered largely around the ethos of Free Speech), it's not necessarily a smart thing to attack them. It's quite trendy now to push the meaning of censorship all the way back to a legal definition around the first amendment and say things like private companies can't censor people. That's simp…

> Reddit was born on the spirit of freedom of speech Was it though? "back when I was running things, if there was anything racist, sexist, or homophobic I'd ban it right away. I don't think there's a place for such things on reddit. Of course, now that reddit is much bigger, I understand if maybe things are different." http://www.vox.com/2015/7/15/8967721/reddit-yishan-wong-elle...

It was, right after the new CEO said it's NOT a bastion of free speech someone found a quote from a founder saying that it was precisely that:

https://np.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/3dautm/conten...

Also first sentence on http://www.reddit.com/rules "reddit is a pretty open platform and free speech place, but there are a few rules"

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#169

Post by [deleted] »

pc86 wrote: post #4
wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

> pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood This may be one of the most hyperbolic things I've read on HN in a very long time.

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#170

Post by ashwinaj »

wxs wrote: post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

> pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood

I don't think we'd like to trivialize online abuse and threats, but comparing it to the klan? Seriously.

With Ms. Pao, she's shrewd in trying to get all the sympathy mileage from the Kleiner case to Reddit. Everyone loves a victim.

EDIT: Thanks pc86

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