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Going undercover as a sex worker

aljazeera.com

161–170 of 236 posts

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany doesn't have decriminalisation, it has regulation.

Sorry, you're correct and I edited my post to reflect that. Are you arguing for completely unregulated decriminalization? You really don't think that this would cause an increase in trafficking? If an attempt at legalization with measures to curb trafficking didn't work, how would literally letting pimps operate with impunity be a better solution? Here's a paper with some links to how decrim has worked in Auckland: h…

Why would legalising sex work "let pimps operate with impunity"? Not all sex workers are trafficked.

Sex workers can't seek help when sex work is illegal, because they fear arrest.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#162
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but what gave you the idea that "natural" equals "good"? I'm using the term entirely objectively. Of course everything that happens in nature is "natural". That's what the word means. The distinction I'm making should be obvious: a behaviour that happens in other, closely-related animals, especially if it happens quite frequently, and especially if it is "beneficial" in natural selection (like lions killing thei…

You're trying to be reasonable and logical, which is good. But I think you err in looking to animals to define what is natural behavior for humans. Doing that collapses the enormous gulf which lies between animals and humans. And it also generalizes across all humans. Instead, I think it's better to consider what is "natural" for certain societies and cultures. For example, most people in average, relatively prospero…

I don't think we're fundamentally in disagreement, but I object the notion that people raised in Western countries wouldn't behave like the "clients" in the article do. "Culture" isn't as simple as that -- social norms differ widely within Western cultures and even at the regional or family level. Based on older stories about human trafficking, a lot of "patrons" hail from countries we would consider better than that, and many of them are middle-class or even upper-class, so it's not just a matter of social status either.

Yes, it's difficult to change someone's behaviour by talking at them. The only reliable long-term change in behaviour can be brought about during childhood. Just consider religion: sure, there are adult converts, but a fraction of adults converts from the religion they were raised in to another. A person's religion (and religiosity) is mostly an artefact of how and where they grew up.

> Human trafficking and slavery are wrong because they are wrong, because they are evil.

Evil is an intuitive but ultimately ineffective concept. These behaviours are harmful both to the individual and to society at large. They unilaterally violate the personal liberty and human rights of the victim. That's why we consider them evil, not the other way around.

I'm defining natural in terms of animal behaviour because it's the closest we can get in order to draw conclusions about how humans would behave in the absence of ethics and a functioning society. Rape and murder in cold blood are what we see in extreme situations where society has effectively collapsed (e.g. during war, starvation or epidemics).

There's a reason we say people act like animals in these situations: it's because they do. Starvation, anxiety, duress, etc, they all impact a person's capability of rational thought and lead to people following their most basic instincts. Many people still act "human" in these situations, but in general, you're going to see far more horrific behaviour than otherwise (especially if "one thing leads to another", e.g. because of group dynamics).

Also, if we understand that slavery is wrong not just because it is evil, but because it is demonstrably incompatible with a notion of right and wrong based on minimizing human suffering while maximum personal liberty, it is obvious why it is objectionable to tolerate cultures that consider this behaviour acceptable.

In other words, aside from the ethically neutral aspects of a culture (e.g. creation myths, funny hats and silly rituals), one culture can be objectively better or worse than another.

Of course changing worse cultures for the better is a long and time-consuming process. The recent failures in the Middle East and the Arab world are good examples of why you can't just invade a place and force the inhabitants to adopt modern values.

But teaching someone to be a good person is much easier when they're well-fed and don't have to fear for their life, health or fortune.

(For the record, this isn't about Islam or Christianity or even any religion at all -- any culture that perpetuates harmful values has to change, whether those values are based on religion, tradition or mere lack of consideration; religions just tend to get more offended when you try to tell them they are wrong.)

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#163
post #121

> 'Going undercover as a sex worker' This article is about human trafficking, not sex work. The title makes as much sense as 'Going undercover as a construction worker' and then writing about a construction worker kept as a slave in Dubai.

And yet, that's exactly what occurred.

The journalist had to pose as a prostitute to get close to other (unwilling) prostitutes who had been trafficked into the country.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#164
post #145
post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

I really like your story breakdown here. Those are three pretty clear contributors to the overall forced sex trade story. But I feel like there is one more story that is much less obvious. The three stories you identify reside on the supply side of the issue. On the demand side I feel there is a story about how our social expectations of monogamy contribute to the demand for prostitution. How men in sexless monogamou…

Or perhaps if they are in a marriage that restricts a resource that isn't supplying enough of that resource, then the marriage should be reexamined. Marriage is a contract, if you don't like the terms you agreed to, attempt to change the contract, not to cheat it.

It's the same for sex as it is for anything else.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#165
post #2

Much like with drugs, the best way to reduce human trafficking and abusive prostitution would be to fully legalize and regulate sex work. In countries where prostitution is accepted and legal, it's safer for both the sex workers and the customers, with less risk of disease and abuse. Sex workers are treated humanely and not condemned. Society in general benefits too, through properly paid taxes, lower crime rates, an…

Seems to work well in Switzerland. Every now and then there's a trafficking bust that usually involves Asians that aren't legal workers. Prostitutes have to be able to legally work in Switzerland which means that nearly all of them come from Schengen countries. For the most part it seems to work well, with most of the workers independent and temporary for 30 days at a time. Pimps are illegal, prostitutes must be lega…

Not to sure about this. Street prostitution is a common thing in Genève.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#166
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typical. Nothing I said was untrue, nor even an opinion. They're all facts. Instead of reasoning with me and proving me wrong, you reach for the "bigot" card and refuse to have a conversation. That is being a troll. No big surprise, though. Much easier to click a button and silence those who disagree with you than write a reasonable counter-argument. Well, at least the truth is out there for those who want to find it…

In my entire tenure on HN, I have never wanted to reply to a comment with something that would get me flagged so strongly as this. That deserves some kind of award.

And in the same way, I find your comment amazing. What have I said that is so wrong? What have I said that has incensed you so?

If I had made a racist, truly bigoted comment about people of one skin color or another, that would be understandable. Or if I had said that all people of one religion or another were bad people, that would be understandable. Or if I had said that all people of one sex, or from one place, or who do one kind of job were bad, that would be understandable.

But I haven't said anything like that. I've simply stated some facts which anyone can verify with a few moments of googling.

Why does that anger you so? And if what I have said is untrue, why not just cite some Wikipedia article or random web site that refutes my statements? Or if my statements are generalized and need to be nuanced, why not just point that out?

Whether you agree with me or not, I've made some assertions which should be verifiable or disprovable. It's starting a conversation which can move forward toward the truth, whatever that truth may be. If you think the truth is not what I've said, then why don't you show me what you think the truth is?

When you, instead, give the impression that you're so red-faced with anger that steam is pouring from your ears and you can't speak through your clenched teeth, that doesn't make you appear to be the reasonable one. If you're truly speechless, the question is, why?

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some numbers+sources? I live in Germany and the official statement from the police seems to be that it is not actually a huge problem.

I'm just following links others have posted, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany#Human_... . Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Germany links to a US Trafficking in Persons Report 2010. Here are some quotes: "Ninety percent of identified victims of trafficking for commercial sexual exploitation came from Europe, including 28 percent from Germany ..." "... approximately one…

[deleted]

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#168
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't the case with Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany It seems to reduce the violence against workers, but increases human trafficking, because Germany now acts as a safe haven for traffickers. Maybe trafficking would disappear, if all societies made prostitution illegal and not a looked down profession, but I somehow doubt it[1]. So if your goal is to reduce human trafficking, it m…

I don't agree with your points - they echo the recent campaign by Spiegel Online; looking at your Wikipedia article, it seems more to be an issue with open borders and no passport control, and the fact that Germany is in the "middle" of Europe and a relatively rich country, which makes Germany a good target for trafficking. The numbers of yearly cases seem to be fairly low (about 700-800 cases per year in your Wiki-a…

Good to see somebody who's willing to look into things. Most of these comments in here are like the one you replied to, very superficial.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#169
post #99
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't the case with Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany It seems to reduce the violence against workers, but increases human trafficking, because Germany now acts as a safe haven for traffickers. Maybe trafficking would disappear, if all societies made prostitution illegal and not a looked down profession, but I somehow doubt it[1]. So if your goal is to reduce human trafficking, it m…

> Also there is the silly issue, of woman losing her unemployment status because she didn't refused to work as a prostitute. This did not happen. There was a sensationalised story in a paper that it could happen, but as far as I know, it was just that: sensationalised conjecturing. The persistent human trafficking problems are real, though. Proponents of legalised prostitution argue on the meaning of "trafficking" an…

They have agency, jordigh, agency!

They aren't in a new country, with typically no job skills, no hope of getting job skills from their current employment, coerced into taking sex work because they are desperate for money!

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#170
post #121

> 'Going undercover as a sex worker' This article is about human trafficking, not sex work. The title makes as much sense as 'Going undercover as a construction worker' and then writing about a construction worker kept as a slave in Dubai.

Sure, if going undercover as a slaved construction worker was commonplace among developed countries, I'd say you're right. Sex work and trafficking are inextricably linked in today's society, and arguing otherwise is asinine.
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