Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum? • Hacker News Board

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#161

Post by reader5000 » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:27 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #145

kyrra wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

powertower did not imply that anything you originally listed as incorrect, but saying that you are looking at a very small part of what the US does. I'm pretty sure we could look at any person or government, find all their past flaws/mistakes and only list this to show that the person is 'evil'. But without looking at the bigger picture of everything they do, you aren't being fair with your judgement of that person/c…

I don't think the idea was to color the US government as "evil" - but rather that the criticism that these are "exceptions" is off base. In all but one of the examples cited, this was acknowledged, deliberate policy of the government at many levels. Extraordinary rendition, imprisonment without charge, torture, drone strikes, all were known, approved of, and carried out with the assistance of many levels of the centr…

US doesn't have the resources to give every one of the hundreds of thousands of individuals interested in blowing up a chunk of Americans a full blown 8 month trial, 3 hots and a cot, and loving handjobs twice per week.

As in all things in life there's a tradeoff between "justice" and "security". Luckily for you and most of the people in this thread, you get to benefit from the actions of people who have to make that call, while looking down on them from your moral high horse in your comfortably AC'ed parents' basement.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#162

Post by powertower » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:28 PM UTC

flyinRyan wrote: post #154

powertower wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I feel perfectly safe. This whole entire issue about the government collecting meta-data is overblown IMO. And comparing it to tyranny and demanding rioting on the streets is literally self-destructive and utmost retarded. Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. But instead the majorit…

>Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. Modern US patriotism at its finest: find the shittiest place you can think of and compare the US to that to show how great it is.

Sometimes you need to compare and contrast to the worst to get an idea of what's really going on...

Can you get up in the morning, turn on your coffee maker, shower, eat, get in your car, drive to work, ... enjoy your free time, etc? Do you know how many safe things need to happen for any of those events to work? Think about it. From the electricity to the police force to the gas prices and 100 other things.

Or just compare it to Russia, China, UK, etc. A place with at least 100MM people...

We'll both still choose to live in the USA.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#163

Post by tibbon » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #142

tibbon wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough though, that 'right to bear arms' actually gives zero protection from the government as theorized- even if the gov't is acting in a corrupt manner. If this guy was in Texas holed up with a small armory, the FBI would still bust in there and arrest him. If he tried to use that small armory (and wasn't killed) it wouldn't have just been him 'exercising his right' of course.

You know, you are on to something there. What we really have in this country is literally a "right to bear arms". You have no right to fire or wield or use your arms. I can think of no situation where you could fire upon an agent of the government that would not end badly for you, unless there was a total dissolution of Federal and probably State government. Even acting in self defense, even against a corrupt agent o…

I'm not up on my history as much as I should be, but I think some of the influence there conceptually is from the "right to overthrow the government", and the idea that many of the new governments at the time were only lasting a short period of time and then would need revised.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#164

Post by talmand » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #102

anon1385 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been […] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_v._King Justice Ginsburg , dissenting. The Court today arms the police with a way routinely to dishonor the Fourth Amendment ’s warrant requirement in drug cases. In lieu of presenting their evidence to a neutral magistrate, police officers may now knock, listen, then…

You're haggling over the definition of "reasonable", probably based on your views of the drug laws. Do you think that in 1800, the framers would have considered it an unreasonable search to enter a home they could hear being burglarized? No. That's why the 4th uses the wiggle word "unreasonable." I'd bet the reason you think Kentucky is different is that you think drugs are a non crime. I do too, but lots of people d…

I hate to use the slippery slope argument but once you allow police to enter a residence with evidence as simple as something they might have heard through the door then there's no need to ever worry over warrants at all. How do you even prove what they heard or if they heard something in the first place?

If the officer witnesses someone break into the residence then sure, but just hearing something? That doesn't pass the smell test to me, regardless of whether it was about drugs or not.

What are the sounds of a house being burglarized anyway? The homeowner could just be moving stuff around in the living room when the cops bust down the door without knocking. That's property damage that the homeowner is likely stuck with and in some cases it ends badly with someone getting shot.

This whole no-knock attitude that's been in place for decades is a sad joke.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#165

Post by reader5000 » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

xtracto wrote: post #125

powertower wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I feel perfectly safe. This whole entire issue about the government collecting meta-data is overblown IMO. And comparing it to tyranny and demanding rioting on the streets is literally self-destructive and utmost retarded. Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. But instead the majorit…

Good for you that you feel safe. An American colleague of mine (doing a 2nd PhD in Liverpool while I was doing my first/only one) told me he did not create accounts in Google/Yahoo/Hot mail not because of what could happen at this time, but at what the people with that information could do in the future. Right now, you feel perfectly safe in your comfortable chair, having all your information in Google, Facebook, and…

You could also develop liver cancer and die, regardless of your cloud data usage!

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#166

Post by chrischen » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

newbie12 wrote: post #12

_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Back then having to bear arms against your government was a much more likely scenario than it is now. Of course it would lead to something like the civil war. The democratic system is supposed to prevent that anyways.

However in modern times we've moved quite a bit away from the possibility of armed rebellions. It's something that happens in less developed countries like Iraq.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#167

Post by jeremyjh » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:36 PM UTC

pekk wrote: post #80

DamnYuppie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree a well educated and informed society is the best deterrent to keeping governments serving the best interest of the people. Yet recent events have shown that we are not that well informed by our media and government on purpose. Guns are not a deterrent in as much as a means to allow the people to defend themselves against an abusive government when and if needed.

When you say 'the people,' which people do you mean? Because it doesn't serve everyone's interests to threaten civil war in the US - only certain people's interests. These people don't represent all people, listen to what they say closely, but are rather prioritizing their own interests so far above others that they maintain a right to threaten and kill people they disagree with.

>These people don't represent all people, listen to what they say closely, but are rather prioritizing their own interests so far above others that they maintain a right to threaten and kill people they disagree with.

Are you talking about our government?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#168

Post by talmand » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:36 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #100

mtgx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

Where are all the street protests?! The people who went to the streets protesting in 2011 got arrested. You're looking at the maturation of a tyrannical, authoritarian neoliberal regime.

There were groups who have protested who had no serious arrests to report. There were some groups that had a heavy amount of arrests. If one were to look at all the groups protesting recently with an objective eye I'm sure examples can be found that show why one group had such results.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#169

Post by talmand » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:38 PM UTC

fpgeek wrote: post #52

DamnYuppie wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you on the importance of the 1st and 4th amendments. I think the ACLU and EFF will indeed become stronger. I don't know of any 2nd amendment supporters who are also not strong 1st and 4th supporters, the issue comes down to how their voice is heard. Also I don't know any of them who who wouldn't rather change things peacefully, it is a much better solution.

> I don't know of any 2nd amendment supporters who are also not strong 1st and 4th supporters Are you sure? For instance, on cultural grounds, I'd guess that there are plenty of 2nd amendment supporters who would be happy to ban flag-burning...

I'd guess there are plenty of 2nd amendment supporters, on cultural grounds, would have no problem with flag-burning. They may not like it and publicly disagree with it, but they wouldn't stop it.

What's your point?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#170

Post by euroclydon » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 2:38 PM UTC

mpyne wrote: post #139

mcherm wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial? No. But US citizens are routinely arrested and placed in solitary confinement (widely held to be worse than a labor camp) for decades without a trial (guilt is nearly always resolved via plea bargains using the threat of even more years). And by "routinely" I mean the highest incarceration rate in the world: a…

Uh, no to "decades without trial". And, for that matter, to "solitary confinement" as a routine, since we simply don't have that number of empty jail (not prison) cells anyways. It's funny how you mention having a jail cell with no one to bother you as worse than a labor camp though. I think those who have survived gulags or Nazi labor camps might disagree with you on that.

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that solitary confinement is a form of torture. See this highly discussed recent thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790