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Bullying has to stop, now.

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Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OK, but what's your point? So the bully has a hard life. OK, yes, that's true, so sad (really, no sarcasm), but what do you plan on doing about it? Eliminate the social problems that make said person's life hard in the first place. Reduce poverty, end racist laws and law enforcement, and make it possible for individuals and communities to have self determination rather than being undermined by private and public in…

> Reduce poverty, end racist laws and law enforcement, and make it possible for individuals and communities to have self determination rather than being undermined by private and public institutions. Welcome to the twenty-fourth century. My name is Jean-Luc Picard and I'm captain of the starship ``Enterprise''...

> Welcome to the twenty-fourth century.

If we (as a human kind) want to get there, we'd better get to fixing those problems; there's still a lot of work to do.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#162
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765109

But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they've crossed a line. Fuck them up. It's the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They're wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you're the stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason, you need to impose your will on them.

Even if you lose, lose swinging. They respect it. Be a tough fight.

This "talk it out" shit doesn't work... it's been the dogma for the last 30-50 years, it assumes the nobility of human nature will win out. It doesn't. It's nonsense. It just simply doesn't work.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#163

There is only one way I've found to successfully deal with a bully: Fight back with everything you've got, and don't be fair about it. I got a LOT of flack from teachers who would give me the usual "solve problems without violence" bullshit, but here's the thing: In every school I went to (we moved around a lot), I got picked on by the local bullies one time, and ONLY one time. Sure, I got the shit kicked out of me a…

Curiously, that's more-less exactly how Ender from Orson Scott Card's "Ender Game" approached the topic.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#164

There is only one way I've found to successfully deal with a bully: Fight back with everything you've got, and don't be fair about it. I got a LOT of flack from teachers who would give me the usual "solve problems without violence" bullshit, but here's the thing: In every school I went to (we moved around a lot), I got picked on by the local bullies one time, and ONLY one time. Sure, I got the shit kicked out of me a…

Curiously, that's more-less exactly how Ender from Orson Scott Card's "Ender Game" approached the topic.

Yes, I felt pleased and vindicated when I read that book years later. But he didn't actually have to go that far. You only need to cause enough pain to your opponent that they start to think twice.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#165
post #157
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just providing a good environment for learning (teachers explaining things, eager to answer question). For ones wanting to learn, just don't force them to do so. OK, is someone is not much willing to learn - well, then it may be good to force to do so. But don't force everyone because some need it. (It seems that forcing people to learn is very inefficient. And I think for that reason many times school are places to…

Without 'forcing' kids to school, how do we find the ones that supposedly need it? And how do we get kids who could use it, but from backgrounds that wouldn't bother to educate them at all, into the system? Mandatory education is a good thing.

Forcing all kids to go to school and forcing all kids to learn are two different things.

As you know, daycare (and, say, crime and accident prevention), training, and cultural/national upbringing are different things, and they work differently, often with contradicting goals and methodologies. Currently we tend to treat "education" as a one thing, but in isn't.

I am all for all kids going to school (unless one can provide a better education), otherwise there would be a disaster of crime and poverty, much alike the one during the industrial revolution. However, what happens inside is extremely far from things which "make sense" both for them, and the society.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#166
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great. You are forgetting the schoolyard code. You never go to the appropriate channels. Ever. That is one of the worst things a kid can do to themselves. The ri…

Physical violence never helps. You'll just get in trouble for attacking them.

Perhaps it's different now than it was 15 years ago, but no you wouldn't. Well, unless you properly damage someone ...

... but even then, they will stick to the code and you're both best palls in the principal's office and nothing happened. Any witness they ask will also support the two of you just playing and something silly happening by accident.

The only people in school who never get any respect, in my experience at least, are the ones who snitch, or generally side with the adults.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#167
This video popped into my stream a week ago now, I must have watched it eight or ten times now. It's certainly hit a chord with me.

I went to a secondary school (ages 10-14, first half of high school?) where the senior teachers gave the speeches about a "Zero-Tolerance Approach to Bullying!" and how they had only had three cases of bullying in the last few years. They lied, cooked the figures and redefined bullying to cases of systematic physical abuse which was rare. Because they did have a zero-tolerance policy towards violence.

I have two sets of parents, my dad and then my mum and step-mum. Starting secondary school someone found this out and like a lot of people suggested here when they tried to use it to verbally abuse me I exacted violence against him. Not wanting it to explode into something more, the school kept it very quiet and I didn't get punished, but neither did he. Instead, if he ever told anyone else what happened or about my parents he'd get off scott free. To his defense no-one found out for three and a half years. Instead, I got three and a half years of verbal abuse, the little physical things one can get away with in corridors, my possessions taken and hidden. Some teachers tried to help but there is only so much they can do when most of them don't care. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will break them for you" is something I remember hearing from a sympathetic teacher.

Then one day, it suddenly became common knowledge. I found myself faced with what felt like a third of the school who wanted to see me beaten. Fortunately, I appeared to be the only person who didn't know this was going to happen, there were almost as many if not more people behind me (and quickly, around me) who were adamant that I was going to be okay. The next six months were basically hell. Then as the natural progression of things, I shifted schools to a school that had a teacher who kept everyone in line and looked after those who needed help, be they the abused or the abuser. I was lucky in that I found a support network that let me rebuild myself and my self-esteem after. I am who I am despite, not because, of what I've been through. Even if there are still days where I have to look a little closer at the mirror to remind myself of that.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#168
post #102
post #15

I don't think anything has touched me this deeply for years. I even got a little teary (which is rare for me). A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talke…

One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them. I agree. Part of the problem is that adults tend to hold kids to a much different standard than they hold themselves. For instance, as an adult, if I'm working in a company where verbal bullying and harassment is a problem, and HR does nothing to address the situation, then I'll ju…

I can assure you that the system won't work against bullying -- oh there will be a lot of talk, maybe even with his parents - but of all the people (and that has been a lot) I know who have been bullied over the years only fighting back works.

And you better do it as soon as possible, before he does too much psychological damage on you.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#169
I hate that this link/discussion only spent a few hours on the front page of HN, and has been replaced mostly be frivolous crap.

I'm sure the trivia behind why so many programming languages use curly braces is super fascinating, but I'd much rather be discussing something of substance.

Are these honestly the things that people would rather be discussing instead of bullying and the work of poetry and art that has inspired this discussion?

I'm a little bit disgusted by the HN community at large right now. If I could reset my karma level to 0 in trade for keeping just this one thread on the front page for a whole day I'd do it in a heart beat.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#170
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At age 9 people used to take my stuff and occasionally bully me in a sort of low-grade way. Until I beat the tar out of the main offender. You get a reputation as the smart/nerdy guy that once smashed the jock's head into a wall and nobody really bothers you again. Bullying should absolutely be stopped by other means, but when it comes down to it these are animal level dominance games amongst young apes and violence…

One of my fears about telling kids to defend themselves with force is what if the bully has a gang of friends? An older brother? Access to a weapon? How likely is it that a bully, finally beaten by the victim, escalates further?

That would depend on what school you go to. Inner city slum? Move.
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