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Bullying has to stop, now.

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Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#101

Post by hvs »

petercooper wrote: post #36

Going off on a tangent here, but do people who are good at sports often suffer long term bullying at school? I wasn't bullied at school, IMHO (nothing physical, the odd bit of name calling.. which they got back ;-)) but it seemed as if people who were into sports avoided every hassle, including the sportier geeks who were in the football team, etc. Looking back, I have to wonder if there's something about being activ…

Some of the worst bullying I received was in locker rooms. Don't kid yourself. It can happen anywhere.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#102

Post by mtoddh »

ErrantX wrote: post #15

I don't think anything has touched me this deeply for years. I even got a little teary (which is rare for me). A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talke…

One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them.

I agree. Part of the problem is that adults tend to hold kids to a much different standard than they hold themselves. For instance, as an adult, if I'm working in a company where verbal bullying and harassment is a problem, and HR does nothing to address the situation, then I'll just give my two-week notice and move on to another company. Kids on the other hand don't have the option of giving their two-week notice and moving on to another school because of a 'hostile work environment'.

How many adults do you think would stick around at a company if they had to put up with the level of violence and harassment we subject our kids to in schools? And if the only response they got back from management and HR was a "sticks and stones" speech? Forget about it! Which highlights another difference- it's also in a company's own self interest to address these issues seriously, because if they don't, it's gonna effect their bottom line when good employees start leaving. But, what motivation do schools really have- it's not as if their "employees" (students) get to quit if they don't like the way they are being treated.

What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence?

My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great. And if it doesn't, a right-cross to the bully's nose is what worked for me when I was a kid. Will this stop the bully from picking on people? Probably not - but it will likely make him stop picking on you. He'll move on to the next victim - one who won't fight back.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#103

Post by stared »

thejteam wrote: post #75
polymatter wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, what scares you about ability-based classes? The single strongest motivator for me to do well at school was to get into the top set which was free from bullies.

The problem with ability based groupings across age groups is that doesn't take into account learning velocity, ie the speed at which people learn new things. For example, a second grader that is at a fourth grade math level is likely to learn much faster than a fifth grader at a fourth grade math level. And you don't want to put advanced 8 year olds in a class with slow 11 year olds. That in itself is an invitation…

Actually, the argument for skill-based education _is_ that learning speeds are different.

So for one it takes 6 months to learn something, for another - 3 years. And in such systems it's fine - you got promoted because you have learnt something, not just because you got one year older (and haven't failed utterly).

And again, for the same "level" of subject there can be two speeds - so no risk of smart 8 yo kids in the same class with slow 11 yo.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#104

Post by wuest »

polymatter wrote: post #62
babarock wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that age-based classes is stupid. But what's the alternative? The idea of classifying 5 year old kids based on any kind of factor scares the hell out of me.

Erm, what scares you about ability-based classes? The single strongest motivator for me to do well at school was to get into the top set which was free from bullies.

Me too. Until my family moved to an area, the schools in which didn't recognize ability as an appropriate differentiator. It was not good times for me.

This doesn't mean that ability as a differentiator is bad--I think that it's a great idea. What it does mean is that consistency is absolutely crucial when such an idea is implemented; I was in an environment where excellence was encouraged, and that led to a lot of self-motivation. Not all children are going to be in the same situation, and that could be disasterous.

"The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin tackles the concept of the environment which best facilitates learning and personal growth, and touches on the idea of ability-based classes as well. It's a great read for anyone interested in such.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#105

Post by cathustler »

jbrooksuk wrote: post #92
cathustler wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kid with a myth of a father, and a mother who trades out her allotted food-stamps for drug money is a thug? Bullies aren't born, they're created; I have not once met a bully who had a perfect life before they decided to get angry and take it out on their peers, because, well, they don't know any better. So, yes, kids will be kids.

I disagree here sorry. There are kids who have everything except the love and recognition of their parents. This can have a detrimental effect on a childs life, not feeling loved but having everything. Money is not happiness.

I just used a stark example, you are correct, money isn't happiness. This is something a lot of people don't realize. So what is? In the case the answer to that question is out there, think about a child contemplating that. Can you expect a child to know how to deal with emotional pains at an early age? What are we putting on children if we expect that?

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#107

Post by Nursie »

moron4hire wrote: post #97
Nursie wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School is a combination of daycare and training. We make it mandatory because otherwise the kids of the disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised wouldn't get a decent start in life. It also allows more people to work - someone else is looking after the kids. There's some argument to be had about what age it should be mandatory until, sure, but mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing fo…

Mandatory schooling is more about keeping people OUT of the job market than it is putting people INTO it. If schools were about training, they'd look more like universities (and if universities were about advanced training, they'd look more like business environments). How many kids study to pass the test? How many teachers teach to get the kids to pass the test? And thereafter they forget everything. I see grown-ass…

"you can't teach something to someone who doesn't want to learn"

Pretty sure you can, when they're kids. Repeated exposure at the very least.

I'm not going to address the rest of your comment, I disagree utterly with pretty much everything you've said there.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#108

Post by pmahoney »

Nursie wrote: post #20
MattBearman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's odd, people always say things like "violence doesn't solve anything" but I've heard so many stories like yours where the bullying only stops when the victim retaliates with force. While I've personally never been on either end of bullying, what I've heard leads me to believe that for extreme physical bullying, getting violent can be the solution.

At age 9 people used to take my stuff and occasionally bully me in a sort of low-grade way. Until I beat the tar out of the main offender. You get a reputation as the smart/nerdy guy that once smashed the jock's head into a wall and nobody really bothers you again. Bullying should absolutely be stopped by other means, but when it comes down to it these are animal level dominance games amongst young apes and violence…

One of my fears about telling kids to defend themselves with force is what if the bully has a gang of friends? An older brother? Access to a weapon? How likely is it that a bully, finally beaten by the victim, escalates further?

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#109

Post by Nursie »

stared wrote: post #99
Nursie wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School is a combination of daycare and training. We make it mandatory because otherwise the kids of the disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised wouldn't get a decent start in life. It also allows more people to work - someone else is looking after the kids. There's some argument to be had about what age it should be mandatory until, sure, but mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing fo…

> mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society. [citation needed] ...and on the other hand putting smart kids _willing_ to learn in an uninspiring and oppressive environment. (Bad for their learning and devastating for their still developing personality.) IMHO it's hard to find a worse crime against natural curiosity and willingness than _forcing_ people to do something.

Smart kids willing to learn - how do they know? How do we pick out these smart kids and make sure they get education? Even if they're not from good backgrounds? How do we get these smart kids out of their crappy homes and make sure somebody teaches them something, anything, unless it's mandatory?

YOU may have been perfect, motivated, willing to learn, and may have been given the opportunity to learn even if it wasn't mandatory. Many others would not, many parents wouldn't bother.

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