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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#161

Post by cobertos »

jsmeaton wrote: post #57
bruce343434 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And be honest about the fact that Africans Need Not Apply I have the hunch that that is what it came down to, a matter of public perception. Shunt africa, or shunt lgbt? Both "important minority identities" in the current zeitgeist of the western world. Probably no one wanted to touch that decision with a 10 ft pole.

The open letter states it was a single individual that was able to stonewall the process. It wasn’t about the PSF group as a whole that didn’t want to touch the decision. One person. I think the letter has a fairly good point that processes are broken if this is possible.

It doesn't seem like it was so simple as the open letter puts it? From the boards blog post

https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2023/10/september-october-board...

The first vote had 6 abstentions and 4 yes votes. The second vote had 10 yes votes and 1 abstention. It seemed there was enough outstanding information/questions for 6 total people to abstain, though perhaps 1 of those 6 was using it nefariously? Hard to say

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#162

Post by redserk »

Longhanks wrote: post #134
isodev wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Much like how theres critique how different countries must conform to Western standards, there’s the assumption that rule of law works the same elsewhere.

At some point you have to scan your passport.

The US already had cases where travelers have had to disclose social media use [1]. I don’t think it is a stretch for this process to be copied for more nefarious uses.

1. https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/31/20837448/social-media-dhs...

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#163

Post by ploum »

_cenw wrote: post #142
kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

> This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. If your policies put people at risk, limit to participation is a natural consequence. There is no conspiracy here. >I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those…

You are perfectly right that asking people to not care about the laws of a country is problematic. For personal safety and also as a moral stand point.

But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries, conferences which are a way to learn, to discover new things.

What do you think about conferences organizers, of every country, having to put on their website a little explanation of the laws of their country.

Each explanation would be something:

"In our country, the law forbid XXX. We are very sorry for the people concerned by this law and we are sad about those laws. We would ensure that the conference space is a safe space but they should be aware of those rules still apply in the whole country.

In every case, always choose safety. We are missing you, we hope to have the chance to meet you in another time.".

I feel like installing a tradition of such a disclaimer for every tech conference in the world would:

1. Force people to acknowledge issues in their own country (instead of minimizing them). And I guess every country has its own problem.

2. Show support for the victims of those laws and, indirectly, showing supports for the victims in their own country

3. Advance the cause, change mentality. It forces locals and politicians to be confronted with the fact that international visitors (which every country is trying to attract) may disagree to the point of not coming to the conference.

4. It would be nearly risk-free for conference organizer as it could also be defended as a polite way to ask attendees to respect the law.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#164

Post by kabanda1 »

_cenw wrote: post #142
kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

> This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. If your policies put people at risk, limit to participation is a natural consequence. There is no conspiracy here. >I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those…

I am not asking anyone to be invisible. I am just saying we need to go back to reality and see things the way they are supposed to be.

How long ago were the LGBTQ people also at risk in the Western world? I understand organisations like PSF have their codes to abide by and safety of attendees is and should be a priority.

But if your main mission is to promote python in the whole world. It's not impossible to issue an advisory that LGBTQ people are advised to do this or that about a given location. Python coders have nothing to do with politicians.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#165

Post by Longhanks »

ttyprintk wrote: post #159
Longhanks wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It’s about this statement: > no one is going to ask your sexual orientation at the airport This is not ensured, even if the Tanzanian people are themselves renown for their hospitality.

And if a stranger asks you "have you ever consumed any drugs" you also just cannot help it and make a list of any and all abuse you might have participated in at the other end of the world?

Is reality really that hard for some people? I geniunely don't understand how navigating society can be so difficult?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#166

Post by _lvbh »

melagonster wrote: post #147
kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

>You know very well that coders are among the most reserved people on earth. Do not free/open source software activity or geek culture feel like more close to leftwing? p.s., this comment doesn't try to refute you.

I think they meant reserved as in introverted rather than conservative.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#167

Post by Planktonne »

red_admiral wrote: post #76
keraf wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. I've even been to same-sex weddings here (between foreigners of course, same-sex relationships are still taboo between locals but they do exist) and have gay friends livin…

There are various indexes of how LGBT+ friendly countries are. For example, equaldex lists Tanzania as rank 181 out of 197 countries (lower is better), with a total score of 12/100 (higher is better, best is Iceland at 92-100). They list their methodology and how their scores are computed, so if you want to present a factual counter-argument you are welcome to (I'm not an expert on the matter). But it seems to me tha…

What's the cut-off value for "not safe to hold a conference"? Is it applied fairly?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#168

Post by niam »

arp242 wrote: post #98
red_admiral wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are various indexes of how LGBT+ friendly countries are. For example, equaldex lists Tanzania as rank 181 out of 197 countries (lower is better), with a total score of 12/100 (higher is better, best is Iceland at 92-100). They list their methodology and how their scores are computed, so if you want to present a factual counter-argument you are welcome to (I'm not an expert on the matter). But it seems to me tha…

That site mostly just looks at legal protections, which don't necessarily say all that much about the "facts on the ground". It also has a few opinion polls, but I don't rate those all that much either. And there can be huge variations within countries, and nuances in what is and isn't considered "bad". There are 61 million people in Tanzania, and it's three times the size of Germany in terms of surface area. It's a…

Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is.

I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"?

If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question of "why not?"

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#169

Post by Planktonne »

tbrake wrote: post #74
rainonmoon wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is intrinsically tied to politics. It is made to solve problems the priorities of which are arranged by political and ideological frameworks. It or its supporting infrastructure is often funded by political entities. It's written by people whose identities and freedoms are defined by their political context. You can't separate it from politics except in the case where your degree of privilege allows you to i…

The old "everything is politics if you really think about it" gambit, eh?

Not really a gambit so much as a fact.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#170

Post by TOMDM »

> At a meeting earlier this year, the PSF expressed concern that barely 16% of grants go to African communities.

The continent of Africa makes up 17.89% of the world's population (based on recent UN estimates), well within the margin of error of that 16% allocation I'd expect.

Am I missing something? Are there country's that the PSF doesn't work with at all that would skew this?

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