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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
161–170 of 338 posts
Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#162Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…
What? Just because of reputation? What are you even talking about... Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? The burden of proof is on the accuser. We should be shown evidence, or Carlsen should apologize.
The "if I talk I am in big problem" video is exactly the most he can say without forcing him to go to an unwinnable (because the burden of the proof is on him and it is practically impossible) trial.
What can he do if he is completely convinced of the other player cheating. He can only let the other player win and at the same time make clear that he is not going to play against him.
That is the only legal and honest way to deal with what you perceive is a cheating opponent.
What else can you do? Get a libel trial?
He has not said that the other player does not cheat. But he is not going to play against him.
It is not so easy as to say: "hey, this player cheats".
OK: he has no proof. Perfect, he is willing to lose and keep his mouth shut. But he has said something: "I cannot say anything without getting into an unsolvable trouble".
Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, when it's something that's unprovable (if done well enough), reputation can play a role, esp. if it's golden boy v.s. admitted past cheater. And Carlsen didn't technically accuse him and Niemann is not technically on trial, so "innocent until proven guilty" is irrelevant. Magnus's goal seems to be to get Niemann disinvited from tournaments. He's taking such drastic measures for a reason at the expense of his own…
You definitely don't have to trust his judgment. People change, he could be paranoid at the moment for all we know. Magnus should explain his actions to the organisers and the public, or just not enter tournaments.
And the other side is that people can trust someone's judgment. Credibility matters and people have to make judgment calls on that basis all the time. When companies decide to hire or even fire people they do so on the basis of credibility, and that can have some pretty serious consequences.
Hans has cheated before and that affects credibility. Magnus has been around for awhile and gathered a reputation regarding professional style. That affects credibility. Having high or low credibility is not a crime and everyone is free to create their own personal theories on credibility.
Magnus has decided that he does not want to play Hans. As the world chess champion people will want to know why. Magnus has pre-emptively tweeted a meme which basically says that he refuses to say anything. I don't see what's wrong with Magnus avoiding Hans while basically saying nothing.
Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#164Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…
Nobel prize or not, evidence is needed. Nobel prize is sort of orthogonal to the situation where many other Nobel prize winners also have reservations about the accusation including Gary Kasparov and Fabiano Caruana. Magnus can’t play God, sorry. Eh, let’s call Caruana Fields medalist :-).
Evidence of what?
Has Carlssen explicitly said "This guy has cheated?"
He has only said "I cannot speak because I would be in such a big trouble that I am not willing to do so".
It is not so trivial as "prove it" when you only have a deep, serious, professional conviction.
Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#165I just don't know how this can possibly be resolved. It's not possible to prove Niemann cheated, especially after the fact, and you can't ban him if he's not been proven to cheat. I think the only productive thing going forward will be an absurd level of checks to deter cheats. I mean literally you would have to have airport style security for Chess matches. I don't think that's going to happen. So what's going to happen? Just Magnus always resigning against this one player? And if he really is cheating then Chess is going to turn into Cycling - a sport where everyone is cheating, it's an open secret and the whole thing is pointless.
Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#166Applying sound statistical methods to thousands of Niemann games, cheating expert Ken Regan finds no evidence of cheating [1]. > The verdict > Dr. Regan analyzed all of Hans Niemann's games over the last two years, including online games, such as played on Chess.com and their events, and his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. The wide range of results in a bell curve, with some go…
Quoting Dr. Regan:
""What I'm saying, as justifying my not needing to take the time to individually into tournaments to see which were broadcast and which were not, is that if there is any bias in my data, then it's towards broadcast games (i.e more of it is analyzed due to availability) and yet I show something entirely normal."
This is a simple logic error. The guy might be reputable but haven't really thought this through.
Quick explanation of the mistake if it's not immediately obvious: it's possible to cheat in a way that his statistical method won't catch but the difference in performance between broadcasted and not broadcasted tournaments will highlight it. His statement assumes that his statistical model will catch every cheater which is obviously nonsense. His methods might be very good in a sense that if they show cheating we can be sure cheating in fact occurred but it can't be good enough to find every cheater, if anything because of limitation of input: just the chess moves. For example he wouldn't catch a stronger GM communicating moves to Hans (it's still very human and normal, just stronger) while comparing performance in broadcasted and not broadcasted tournaments would (if someone communicated the moves to Hans in broadcasted ones).
It's very hard to take the guy seriously after that, especially when he is very arrogant about "there is no evidence" statement while it would be more prudent to say his limited statistical model didn't find any.
Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#167I just don't know how this can possibly be resolved. It's not possible to prove Niemann cheated, especially after the fact, and you can't ban him if he's not been proven to cheat. I think the only productive thing going forward will be an absurd level of checks to deter cheats. I mean literally you would have to have airport style security for Chess matches. I don't think that's going to happen. So what's going to ha…
Wasn't this an online game? You'd think it'd be much easier to cheat in such contexts. Airport security is irrelevant if both sides play from their own chosen locations. Maybe the first step is to not use online matches anymore, or at least require both participants to agree to them.
Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#168Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#169I just don't know how this can possibly be resolved. It's not possible to prove Niemann cheated, especially after the fact, and you can't ban him if he's not been proven to cheat. I think the only productive thing going forward will be an absurd level of checks to deter cheats. I mean literally you would have to have airport style security for Chess matches. I don't think that's going to happen. So what's going to ha…
Wasn't this an online game? You'd think it'd be much easier to cheat in such contexts. Airport security is irrelevant if both sides play from their own chosen locations. Maybe the first step is to not use online matches anymore, or at least require both participants to agree to them.
The first match was in person, obviously it's easier to cheat online but that's kind of secondary to the fact that Magnusson clearly already thinks the guy is a cheat. Obviously everyone can discount online games based on the ease of cheating.
Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
The answer is entertainment. I don’t care about any sports (though after a brief stint in watching LoL esports around 2011-2014, I at least understand the theoretical appeal), but many people do. Others don’t care about music. Or about films. But in the end all of it is bread and games.
Entertainment works as an answer of why we do it, but not the question I made, which is why/whether we should .
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