Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#161

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #149

2bitencryption wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdote time: The high school I went to served two neighboring communities, one uber wealthy, the other lower class. As such, the uber-wealthy income taxpayers allowed our district to pay teachers in excess of $150k. I think our gym teacher made $200k. Several of my high school teachers were former university professors. And besides being qualified, these teachers were in general top-notch educators of high school s…

I was looking more for studies than anecdotes, like the one mirajshah posted. My anecdote is that I went to a charter school that served 23 different communities across basically half the state of Massachusetts. Median family income from these communities ranged from $54K (Leominster) to $202K (Lincoln). And there were very noticeable differences in both behavior and academic achievement between students from the Fit…

Another anecdote time:

I went to a school that was majority (97%+) Black and wasn’t zoned to any “wealthy” neighborhoods. But out of the top students, the majority were teachers kids, one was the child of a lawyer (now s judge). Only three or four were children of blue collar workers.

There has been a severe brain drain from the city. Most of the minorities (I am one FWIW), that were honors students left after graduating and never came back.

While the school isn’t crime ridden by any means now, it definitely doesn’t have any standout high achievers.

“White Flight” happened shortly after integration in the 70s. High income “Black Flight” happened after all of the children of white collar parents left.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#162

Post by zacharytelschow » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:57 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #127

zacharytelschow wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your solution to past injustices is systemetized injustices in the other direction?

That isn't unheard-of. Tort law, for instance, has something of that flavor. You might respond that we're talking about different time periods. However, that ignores present reality. Right now , minorities face system a tized injustice in numerous important ways.

What systematized injustices are you referring to?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#163

Post by dustinmoris » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

rhcom2 wrote: post #134

dustinmoris wrote: post #97

Diversity quotas are the dumbest invention of the 21st century. All they do is create racial discrimination against a group of people. If you want to have a balanced admission process, which isn't biased towards a certain group of people (good schools, parents with money, Asians, etc.) then simply change the entry exams from tests which require someone being very book smart (= coming from a privileged background with…

"Smart people will always pick up what they need in order to succeed university, with or without a previous academic background." is just a reframing of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and ignores the entire history of inequality in the US.

No it's not. It means if you are smart then you are still smart even if you haven't visited a private school and entry exams should be changed in such a way that it actually measures the potential of a candidate instead of their current education history. Also years of inequality don't have an effect on a blind process, because no student today had to live through a century of inequality. People of today have been born into a better world and if we design a blind application process then there is no reason why anyone shouldn't perform well. Quotas are only making it worse, by trying to apply a flaw in order to fix another flaw, which might not even exist anymore.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#164

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

educationdata wrote: post #52

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Your assumption is wrong. Even if there is no legacy based admissions, even if every school district in America received proper funding for everything, Black students will still have significantly low educational attainment and achievement. It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1], and there is no educational / societal intervention can reverse its impact on…

It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1], and there is no educational / societal intervention can reverse its impact on Black kids' education and many many other aspects in their lifes.

Yes there are two criminal justice and police reform.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#165

Post by travmatt » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #132

2bitencryption wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdote time: The high school I went to served two neighboring communities, one uber wealthy, the other lower class. As such, the uber-wealthy income taxpayers allowed our district to pay teachers in excess of $150k. I think our gym teacher made $200k. Several of my high school teachers were former university professors. And besides being qualified, these teachers were in general top-notch educators of high school s…

$200K for a gym teacher? Can you share the county/state? I'm amazed at that.

The suburbs above NY (Connecticut) have lots of hedge fund employees and very elite prepatory schools, that’d be my first guess.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#166

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

zacharytelschow wrote: post #162

jessaustin wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't unheard-of. Tort law, for instance, has something of that flavor. You might respond that we're talking about different time periods. However, that ignores present reality. Right now , minorities face system a tized injustice in numerous important ways.

What systematized injustices are you referring to?

Please familiarize yourself with basic facts about crime and punishment in USA. After that, pay attention to how those basic facts affect the communities on which they are imposed.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#167

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

univalent wrote: post #128

I think the problem lies with SATs/GREs/GMATs. The tests (especially SAT, GRE) are ludicrously simple. I'm your run of the mill IIT-an and placed 98th and 99th percentile without breaking a sweat in the GRE when it came time for grad school. I think I maxed 2 of the 3 sections and was 98th percentile in both. What's the point of a test like that? Thousands of people max/get to the highest percentile and it becomes us…

Let me tell you a little story.

My son did miserably on the ACT the first time he took it and didn’t meet the minimum to get into his college of choice.

After 10 sessions with a private tutor who was a college professor - costing $100/hour - he scored well enough to get admitted. Did he learn anything from the tutor that would help him do well in college or was he taught the test? The test did not measure his aptitude.

Another anecdote. I had the highest SAT score in my school and the second highest in the (relatively poor) city I grew up in. Do you think it was because I was that smart or because my mom was a high school math teacher who had been doing SAT tutorials for years?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#168

Post by vixen99 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:13 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #36

patrickg_zill wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about "equality of opportunity" or "equality of outcome"?

Opportunity. Affirmative Action is a band aid on one of many gaping wounds in America caused by discrimatory policies. White flight, block busting and redlining all contribute to the current state of affairs in which Affirmative Action seems like a decent solution. The real solution however will require full scale reform. Have you ever seen video of a school board meeting where desegregation bussing was on the agenda…

Affirmative action bestows a patronizing narrative on the selected groups. And what's worst, the narrative likely taints the reputation of the beneficiaries thereafter. We all know examples of that. Affirmative action for one person almost always results in an undeserved kick in the backside for someone else.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#169

Post by ejstronge » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:16 PM UTC

fipple wrote: post #77

ejstronge wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your assumption is wrong Perhaps... > It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1] This is wildly unsourced - what data do you have (ideally across nations/racial categories) for this?

This is such a well known fact that calling it unsourced is like calling a claim that the sun rises in the east unsourced. https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in...

Nowhere in that link does single-parenting affects educational outcomes.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#170

Post by hackinthebochs » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

Symmetry wrote: post #131

drak0n1c wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment seems to be emphasizing the point that bureaucrats who have never met/interviewed the students shouldn't be the ones deciding which students have the potential to develop positive people skills. Their alleged leaning on stereotypes to make those decisions is unsurprising given such constraints.

Especially since the alumni interviewers who actually meet the candidates give Asian candidates basically the same marks for personality as White candidates.

But are the students who meet with alumni a representative sample? If I were a socially inept applicant I would take my chances without the interview.