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Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

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Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#131
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People skills are helpful to success. I can testify to that as someone with insufficient amounts.

The parent comment seems to be emphasizing the point that bureaucrats who have never met/interviewed the students shouldn't be the ones deciding which students have the potential to develop positive people skills. Their alleged leaning on stereotypes to make those decisions is unsurprising given such constraints.

Especially since the alumni interviewers who actually meet the candidates give Asian candidates basically the same marks for personality as White candidates.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The best elementary schools in the nation are driven by property taxes, how many people do you know bought their house because of the school district?" Sometimes I wonder how much of this is everyone mistaking causation vs. correlation. School districts with high property taxes tend to have a number of other features in common, like: stable 2-parent households; high incomes; ability to afford private tutors and enri…

Anecdote time: The high school I went to served two neighboring communities, one uber wealthy, the other lower class. As such, the uber-wealthy income taxpayers allowed our district to pay teachers in excess of $150k. I think our gym teacher made $200k. Several of my high school teachers were former university professors. And besides being qualified, these teachers were in general top-notch educators of high school s…

$200K for a gym teacher? Can you share the county/state? I'm amazed at that.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#133
post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

> We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding

In the US overall, school funding is negatively correlated with student achievement.

This does not suggest that lack of funding is an obstacle to achievement.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#134

Diversity quotas are the dumbest invention of the 21st century. All they do is create racial discrimination against a group of people. If you want to have a balanced admission process, which isn't biased towards a certain group of people (good schools, parents with money, Asians, etc.) then simply change the entry exams from tests which require someone being very book smart (= coming from a privileged background with…

"Smart people will always pick up what they need in order to succeed university, with or without a previous academic background." is just a reframing of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and ignores the entire history of inequality in the US.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#135

I think the problem lies with SATs/GREs/GMATs. The tests (especially SAT, GRE) are ludicrously simple. I'm your run of the mill IIT-an and placed 98th and 99th percentile without breaking a sweat in the GRE when it came time for grad school. I think I maxed 2 of the 3 sections and was 98th percentile in both. What's the point of a test like that? Thousands of people max/get to the highest percentile and it becomes us…

The SAT, which is the more relevant test for this discussion, was intentionally made easier years ago, so that it would be better suited to measuring the vast majority of USA college applicants. That made it less suited to Harvard's needs, but not as much as one might think. Plenty of Harvard students had less than the maximum SAT scores. Some might prefer that admission be based solely on test scores, but that is not Harvard's preference.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#136
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdote time: The high school I went to served two neighboring communities, one uber wealthy, the other lower class. As such, the uber-wealthy income taxpayers allowed our district to pay teachers in excess of $150k. I think our gym teacher made $200k. Several of my high school teachers were former university professors. And besides being qualified, these teachers were in general top-notch educators of high school s…

$200K for a gym teacher? Can you share the county/state? I'm amazed at that.

I'd guess Jersey or SoCal.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#137
Why do people think affirmative action is a good idea?

It's not meritocratic. People should be judged based on their skill, not based on their gender, race, or ethnicity. We should be striving for a fair society, not equality of outcome

It's insulting to those minorities, it implies that they can't be smart enough to make it without this kind of leg up, and they will never know the extent to which this played a role in their success even if they're absolutely solid at what they do. And I think there's definitely a negative psychological effect to minorities by doing these kinds of things

If a student gets into a school which is above their skill level or general academic interest, they could burn out and loose interest in a profession that otherwise would've been a good fit for them. A similar lack of motivation can also happen for someone who can only get into a school that's below their true skill level because they don't feel that their being valued fairly

It isn't all encompassing -- it's not just gender and race, there are ethnicities that are widely discriminated against and they don't get a similar leg up. I don't think AA should be applied at all, just pointing this out

There are problems in some minority communities struggle with for sure, but this isn't the right way to solve it at all

One of big reasons why asian and jewish communities do better here is just culture -- their cultures highly value intellectual pursuits. I knew an asian guy that went to Harvard and they were so poor they lived in the ghetto, which should've messed up his chances because the public school sucked, but he was raised to highly value academic pursuits. And an asian girl I knew that went to Columbia, her mother told her that if she doesn't achieve academically she won't love her anymore. While harsh, they punish their kids for an A- the way other cultures would view an F. But it's a big reason for their academic success

I also knew a girl that was very rich, but she basically didn't have to pay tuition because of her minority. I'm sorry but that's really annoying for someone that had to take out insane amounts of student debt. There were times when I thought I had to drop out because I couldn't even get approved for a loan, and the interest rates were insanely high

The better solution is to find out why some minorities aren't doing well academically in proportion to others in the first place and change that. If it's financial or cultural or whatever else, the underlying cause should be addressed, not this BS

Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvnTByzTmA

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The best elementary schools in the nation are driven by property taxes, how many people do you know bought their house because of the school district?" Sometimes I wonder how much of this is everyone mistaking causation vs. correlation. School districts with high property taxes tend to have a number of other features in common, like: stable 2-parent households; high incomes; ability to afford private tutors and enri…

Well of course. Property taxes are high because property values are high, and if property values are high then the only people who can afford to buy (or even rent) are going to be wealthy or relatively wealthy. So what we're really saying is that wealth is correlated with academic outcomes, which I think is non-controversial. What I found insightful about GP's post is that it explains the mechanism by which wealth tr…

Property taxes are certainly the mechanism by which wealth transfers from residents to public schools. They're a mechanism by which wealth transfers away from private schools.

But more relevantly, they are not a mechanism by which wealth transfers from residents into academic outcomes. It is non-controversial that wealth is correlated with academic outcomes, but it's not at all obvious that there is a causative link between them. Increasing the amount of money a school has does not in general improve the academic outcomes achieved by the students at those schools.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#139
There's obviously an inequality problem between races in America but why don't we just provide affirmative action to low income people of all races? It could be as simple as boosting the chances of admission for all low income applicants by 5%. Just because systematic racism has lead to the oppression of black people in the country doesn't mean that race is the only factor we can look at to encourage diversity.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#140
post #59
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the possibility that these school districts have financial needs that are different from better districts, and that they would do even worse if there was less money spent on them?

Do you have examples of what some of these special needs would be?

Some examples:

Schools with more special needs (In the literal sense) students will perform worse on standardized tests. They also need bigger budgets, because they need more staff, to support those special needs students.

Schools with more students coming from troubled homes will perform worse on standardized tests (Because not only do those students score badly, many of them disrupt their classes, causing problems for other students.) The common solutions are smaller class sizes, more administrative staff, more money spent on dealing with damage to school property, more money spent on on-site security, etc.

Being a teacher to 30 kids is hard. Being a teacher to 30 kids, and a parent to 10, and a cop to 5 is maddening.

These school districts that are spending more money, and performing poorly... Usually aren't pissing it away on serving caviar on Thursdays, and filet mignon on Fridays in the cafeteria, or on sending the Grade 5 class to Disneyland, or on buying the principal a Porche.

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