Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 228 posts

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#11

Post by mberning »

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #4
lainga wrote: post #2

Equivalent Bloomberg article [0] mentions that the ACLU has taken Harvard's side, and they state [1]: While the DOJ’s brief does not challenge Supreme Court precedent granting universities the right to freely select their own student body—presumably because it cannot do so at this stage of the litigation—the Trump administration has advocated for “race-blind” policies, which Harvard and virtually all other universiti…

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

Yeah, that is bonkers. Let’s use some actual racism to fix some other deficiency, which we assume is the result of some previous racism.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#12

Post by nradov »

Harvard (and some other schools) used to apply similar subjective criteria to limit the number of Jewish students.

Since there is no real legal definition of race, applicants who might be disadvantaged by this policy are free to select whichever answer on the "What is your race?" question they want. If the system is unfair, there's nothing immoral about gaming it.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#13

Post by creaghpatr »

gowld wrote: post #9
zyang wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disappointed in ACLU's stance. Why not apply the same logic to other parts of admission and ensure Asian students receive equal share of sport scholarships.

Harvard doesn't offer sports scholarships.

But they offer admission based on ability to play sports, so they can mandate meaningful diversity on their sports teams that reflects the greater student body.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#14

Post by lainga »

nradov wrote: post #12

Harvard (and some other schools) used to apply similar subjective criteria to limit the number of Jewish students. Since there is no real legal definition of race, applicants who might be disadvantaged by this policy are free to select whichever answer on the "What is your race?" question they want. If the system is unfair, there's nothing immoral about gaming it.

Well, by the same token, all you had to do was say "no, I'm not gay" at the US border until 1990.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#15

Post by jaaron »

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

But there's the rub:

"We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]."

Ergo, we need affirmative action.

That is not to say we shouldn't also put significant effort into eradicating institutional prejudices, eliminating poverty, and investing in all communities. However, that effort will take generations and may never fully succeed, which means affirmative action, in its various forms, is necessary to counter-balance failures elsewhere.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#16

Post by patrickg_zill »

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Are you talking about "equality of opportunity" or "equality of outcome"?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#17

Post by kermittd »

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Definitely low hanging fruit nevertheless I think it is a small step in the right direction.

I would definitely like to see a more parental income based AA. Take the proverbial Black applicant whose parents are dentists, versus the proverbial Asian applicant whose parents emigrated and own a struggling restaurant.

Who would rank higher on the AA scale? We know the answer.

The other changes you mentioned are way more important, substantive, and difficult. How many parents (even those with great intentions!) would make the required sacrifices to see an equitable educational outcome for someone else's children?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#18

Post by dunpeal »

jaaron wrote: post #15
40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

But there's the rub: "We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]." Ergo, we need affirmative action. That is not to say we shouldn't also put significant effort into eradicating institutional prejudices, eliminating poverty, and investing in all communities. However, that effort will take generations and may never fully succeed, which means affirmative action, in its various forms, is necessary t…

> "We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]." > Ergo, we need affirmative action.

Logical fallacy.

"I have a good immune system, so I would not need medicine if I got a cold."

Doesn't mean I need medicine right now, when I'm not sick at all.

EDIT: The example seems to be confusing people, so here's a more formal explanation:

if (reality is different) then not (we need affirmative action)

Does not imply:

if not (reality is different) then (we need affirmative action)

The original claim is P-> ~Q

It doesn't follow that ~P -> Q

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#19

Post by mantas »

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

While that would certainly improve education, affirmative action camp would still have plenty of talking points. More educated parents do have effect on their kids' educational ability. There's always space to one-up by those who got money. Classes can always be smaller, some schools can always have better teachers and equipment, more study-oriented students will keep concentrating in specific locations. Perfect equality is not possible.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#20

Post by samangan »

nradov wrote: post #12

Harvard (and some other schools) used to apply similar subjective criteria to limit the number of Jewish students. Since there is no real legal definition of race, applicants who might be disadvantaged by this policy are free to select whichever answer on the "What is your race?" question they want. If the system is unfair, there's nothing immoral about gaming it.

Almost all the ivy leagues have in person interviews... Also are people supposed to fake their names?
Post reply on HN