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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#161

Post by kmonsen »

aetherson wrote: post #96
pdabbadabba wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have thought that a UBI would replace most or all existing entitlement programs. But perhaps people have different ideas? And you're right, of course, that the poor in the U.S. generally are not literally starving. Though their poor health and high obesity rates are themselves symptoms of their limited access to healthy food, and difficulty maintaining a healthy lifestyle that may be due to other poverty-indu…

I think it would be politically difficult to replace most or all existing entitlement programs with a basic income. When you get a bunch of disabled people up on stage and they say, "Wait a minute, we are genuinely unable to work most jobs, and we have special needs to just get through the day, and you propose to just give us the same amount of money you do to some 22 year old healthy slacker from a good family who w…

I always thought it would replace existing programs, but you have made me realize this is not true.

I guess in the end it comes up to do we believe in personal responsibility or not, and if the state or parents are responsible for children. (It looks like I am in the camp that does not think children should starve because they have irresponsible parents).

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#162

Post by SilasX »

empath75 wrote: post #32
harryh wrote: post #2

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Just something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

The top marginal tax rate would have to be dramatically increased to pay for it. Also, you'd have to increase capital gains and estate taxes. Make no mistake, basic minimum income would be a massive redistribution of wealth. I'm in favor of it, but let's not pretend we can pay for it by shuffling around some social safety net spending.

... and you'd have to stop everyone from throwing complicated tax structures around their incomes to avoid the increasing tax rates.

I know, "just close the loopholes lol". Except that it's a battle of wits of nerds against a bureaucracy with every-bigger portions of the economy at stake, where every government victory is a longer, less transparent tax code.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#163

Post by dandermotj »

Nogwater wrote: post #125
kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

> I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal I don't agree, and I'm not sure why people would see employment for its own sake would be a good thing. I want to increase some of the things that employments brings (purchasing power, a sense of purpose, etc...) and not others (loss of time, feeling trapped, etc...).

I suppose from an individual standpoint examples like yours are very relevant - a big fear for myself is working a job we're I am unfulfilled - but from a broad view we must agree increasing employment is a good goal. The more people working, the greater the output and the cheaper it costs, from which everyone benefits whether we are employed ourselves or not. A highly employed nation is a bountiful one.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#164

Post by rconti »

alttab wrote: post #134
rconti wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who does it help? Anybody? When you tell every home shopper "you can afford x% more house thanks to this deduction", what do you think that does to prices?

Trust me, its not mortgage interest rate deductions that are driving up demand and prices for homes. Overseas buyers paying all cash are driving up prices - and stock markets pumped full of zero interest cash are causing soaring prices. If you are suggesting that mortgage interest rate deductions are fueling another housing bubble, then we are about to witness another amazing sub-prime real-estate crash. Considering…

I am not suggesting that mortgage interest tax deductions are fueling a housing bubble. Nothing of the sort.

I am merely pointing out that a subsidy that applies to everyone in a market naturally drives up the price by a similar amount. It wouldn't fuel runaway growth, but neither does it help 'affordability'.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#165

Post by thescriptkiddie »

savanaly wrote: post #80
a3n wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, And? Why is that artificial increase a problem. Every law on the books is an artificial act. I don't see many people wringing their hands over the mortgage interest deduction, another of those artificial changes to the economy.

I usually really, really hate when people trot out the "go back to econ 101" argument, but in this case it applies. The reasons why a minimum wage might be inefficient (to what degree is very much debatable and dependent on the cirumstances) are explained thoroughly in any introductory microeconomics educational resource.

The ECON 101 argument regarding minimum wage and deadweight loss gets a lot less convincing when get to ECON 110 and start learning that the real world is a lot more complicated than two roughly-perpendicular curves. In real life, labor markets have very inelastic supply, which means that the deadweight loss is small and comes almost entirely from consumer (in this case, employer) side. In most cases this is a net gain for workers. Of course, all of this goes out the window if the minimum wage is non-binding (as it is in most of the US), in which case there is actually zero deadweight loss. Basic income is far superior to minimum wage for meany reasons, but "minimum wage doesn't work" isn't one of them.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#166

Post by alistairSH »

DickingAround wrote: post #6

It makes sense if-and-only-if that basic income isn't being doled out by the same organization which also runs the military-industrial or prison-industrial worlds. As an American, I think it's safe to say our federal government can't be trusted to not turn into a tyranny if it's everyone's primary employer. We would get even more massive corruption almost instantly. For example, some people would lobby to get those t…

In some respects, wouldn't a UBI also decrease corruption? There is no more pandering to special interests on either fringe of the social spectrum. There is a much smaller bureaucracy. And on the personal level, you don't have poor citizens trading food credits for drugs - they just buy whatever they want.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#167

Post by alttab »

msellout wrote: post #157
alttab wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mortgage interest deduction "hurts" only government tax revenues. Raising the tide on minimum wage impacts every business that has employees, regardless of what their cost structure is. What if your business worked in such a way that a single employee wouldn't even produce $15 of revenue in an hour? You can't lose money on every sale and make up for it in volume. The artificial increase is a problem because it go…

Mortgage interest deduction also inflates home prices, benefitting home sellers and harming everyone else. A home buyer might think they're benefitting, but in fact the seller simply increased price until the deduction was of net zero benefit for the buyer.

What are you talking about? Mortgage interest deduction determines how much money a private person pays in taxes to the federal government each year, relative to their income minus deductions. It does not directly impact home sale price.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#168

Post by yanilkr »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #124
yanilkr wrote: post #95

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which i…

Basic income is necessary to distribute benefits for citizens with intangible value creation. Ex: Stay-at-home parent raises children while breadwinner works. Breadwinner is freed from tedium and can be more productive at work. Children receive enough attention to become well-adjusted and productive adults. What is the non-breadwinner worth? How do you calculate it? How do you compare value to non-working person taki…

Citizens are not some helpless victims. They make their life choices and they should by exercising personal responsibility.

The same benefits also applies to non-value creators who want to avoid tedium of work and the incentivizes to not do anything and takes risks goes away.

There is a natural Darwinism involved in influencing who wants to have kids. If someone is already struggling in their life, why should they get the incentive to have kids?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#169

Post by pessimizer »

kough wrote: post #29

> No one wants to hire them at a high minimum wage, especially when locals are readily available The main drawback to a minimum wage is that it artificially increases the cost of labor, to the point where it's no longer worth it to an employer to hire a low-output employee. I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal, but an increased minimum wage actually hinders progress on that front. As the m…

> I think we'd all agree that increasing employment is a good goal

I don't think we do. Employment is not a good in and of itself, and a person who is working is not necessarily in a better position than a person who is not. People working for a wage that doesn't support their needs (which then has to be subsidized by the government) are just vehicles for transfer payments from government to garbage business.

> because there are huge benefits to being productively employed.

To make your assumptions explicit here, if you value employment for employment's sake, anything that maximizes the number of people employed is good. Why not negative wages? I suppose a full time job that pays less than it takes to feed and house a person and has to be supplemented with welfare in order to do so is a sort of negative wage...

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#170

Post by msellout »

alttab wrote: post #134
rconti wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who does it help? Anybody? When you tell every home shopper "you can afford x% more house thanks to this deduction", what do you think that does to prices?

Trust me, its not mortgage interest rate deductions that are driving up demand and prices for homes. Overseas buyers paying all cash are driving up prices - and stock markets pumped full of zero interest cash are causing soaring prices. If you are suggesting that mortgage interest rate deductions are fueling another housing bubble, then we are about to witness another amazing sub-prime real-estate crash. Considering…

The mortgage interest deduction started in 86. Or rather, the isolation of mortgages as tax deductible started in 1986. The effect has been in place for longer than the more recent trends you're describing.

I suppose that means I don't trust you?

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