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Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

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Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pao had thousands of accounts calling her a ching-chong cunt. There's potentially a big difference. I'm not defending the slur - it's abhorrent. But if the magnitude matters to you, let's try to be accurate when we describe what we're counting.

Really? So you are going to count the number of "accounts" now? She was bullied and forced to resign. This is the standard operating procedure of many here on HN and on the Internet (Mozilla CEO anyone?): Someone just can't have a differing opinion. They need to be bullied, tormented, silenced, fired, and marginalized until they admit that their opinion is wrong. It was all based on mis-information (many still don't…

This modern trend of trying to fire people whose speech we don't like is nuts.

I suspect, possibly incorrectly, that it's being done heavily by people who have never tried to support a family and don't realize the extreme damage their "hobby" has on the world.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#152
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pao had thousands of people calling her a ching-chong cunt. Why do you think your comment is relevant to this thread?

I never actually saw a post saying "ching-chong cunt". Can you point to one? I searched for [ching chong cunt reddit] and didn't find anything either. I did see lots of posts saying things like "Ellen Pao is LITERALLY Hitler", but not any overtly racist ones that I can recall.

(Edit: removed rudeness.)

Here's one. There were lots of others that used the term cunt or used racial slurs.

https://np.reddit.com/r/punchablefaces/comments/39dl6s/ching...

I mean, it's a comment on a thread in a sub called "punchable faces", the thread links to an Imgur image of Pao labled "ching chong ding dong", has 2,400 upvotes.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#153

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

It's better than feeding them. One step at a time; stop feeding the trolls, then fix SWATing and online harassment.

Step one of "How to Deal with Bullies": Show minimal reaction. [1]

1: http://www.wikihow.com/Deal-With-Bullies

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is recommending a repeal of the First Amendment. At best, the conversation is about whether orgs like Reddit have any obligation (moral, business, or otherwise) to allow people screaming racial or ethnic slurs to stand on (metaphorically speaking) their property and use their megaphones. Usenet still exists, and nobody is stopping people from using it. It's just not where trolls go to be heard anymore, because…

"Nobody wants to take away your right to free speech, we're just trying to create social norms that discourage, or hinder, the freedom to express views we don't like. Ignore the fact that social norms inevitably become codified in law."

Reddit does not owe you free speech. You can say whatever you want, and they can choose not to broadcast it to millions of people.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#156
There are a few underlying issues here.

There is a lot of denial about the nature of the intellectual bell curve. The majority of people are not that smart and cannot make thoughtful contributions to most discussions. The majority of people will at least some of the time lose decorum and make vicious personal attacks when they perceive themselves as being threatened or as being wronged. Upvoting and downvoting is an action, and action requires motivation. Thus, unless an audience is especially smart and valuing of rationality, comments are most likely to get upvotes when they provoke an emotional reaction.

To have a high quality discussion board you must have a critical mass of reasonable, smart people. You must avoid letting in the hoi polloi. And you must quickly ban users who make dumb comments or violate decorum.

However, most internet business models are based on advertising. Advertising revenues are based on eyeballs. And a normal stupid person's eyeballs are worth just as much as smart person's eyeballs (perhaps more, the smart person probably has adblock installed).

Thus the central conflict. Business models are based on making it as easy as possible for normal people to get engaged in the platform. But the result of normal people getting engaged will be vicious and unsavory content. Also if it is easy to create account, then it is easy to switch accounts if one account is banned. So it becomes impossible to silence the unsavory users.

I think that ultimately Reddit will end up as sort of the Wikipedia version of a newspaper. All pretense of being free speech or democratic will be dropped in the major subreddits. Rather it will be a media site on a variety of issues that is mostly top-down, and controlled by the actions of entrenched, established users and moderators.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#157
post #29

Misquoting Bart Simpson "If you never experience the abuse, you'll never get desensitized to it", and with that in mind, and talking here only about written abuse, these are my favorite three outcomes for, let's say, my daughter: 1) No one abuses her online 2) People abuse her, she dismisses it as noise 3) People abuse her, and she reacts and attempts to control it I think we should be aiming for number 2.

We absolutely should be aiming for number 1. I think I get your point, that it is healthy to be able to deal with the world as it is, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept or embrace it as it is.

I agree with you. I dont think that that would be practical though so teaching #2 is probably going to help the most amount of people.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#158
I can't stand this Ellen Pao fraud. Has she not used the internet before? It has always been this way. Pao is grossly naive in so many capacities. She failed to understand her audience at reddit and clearly doesn't understand one of the fundamental tenants to using the internet; being able to scream and shout at people in my underware is a right. Poke the hive, expect angry bees.

I wish Ellen Pao would just, GO AWAY! I'm sure she will resume suing her way to the top very soon.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#159
post #137
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is debating that extreme insults are normal when people get angry. What people are saying is that it needs to stop being normal.

I'd much rather eradicate murder. Murder sucks. It needs to stop being a normal day-to-day occurrence in our lives. Someone, somewhere will be murdered today. How can you continue with your life knowing that will happen? Worse - it will be more than one person! Multiple people will be murdered today, tomorrow, and every day in the future too! Most of them are total strangers, but maybe one day it will be someone you…

With respect (because I share the feeling), that's an attitude that helps one sleep at night in a broken world, but it's inherently defeatist and decreases the likelihood of positive change. Because things can be changed. Over the work of several decades, the murder rate (along with the violent crime rate) has gone down. Why should we just assume that the same can't be said for bullying and abuse?

There's plenty of question of how much we're willing to spend to solve the problem, of course (to give a terrible ad absurdium example, it's trivial to stop Internet bullying by shutting off the internet). But when we just hand-wave and say "Can't be fixed," we aren't helping.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#160
post #2

I just posted this in the earlier submission[1], but I'll put it here too: I really worry that if we don't find a way to fix the abuse problem, pseudonymity online will be looked back on by future generations as our time's Klan hood. Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online. Platforms need to take a stand and find a way reduce hate and abuse, or public opinion (and my own) wi…

>Abuse stories like these make me embarrassed to support any form of privacy online.

Sounds like a personal problem.

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