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Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#151

Post by josefresco »

dmayle wrote: post #133
lectrick wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, 1) Apple was the first to use USB even though it wasn't an Apple tech 2) Apple was the first to use Thunderbolt even though it wasn't an Apple tech 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C (aka "USB-C") even though it wasn't an Apple tech (although rumor has it that Apple engineers had a lot of input on it) The technology you're probably confusing it with is FireWire, which WAS Apple tech.

* 1) Apple was the first to use USB even though it wasn't an Apple tech Not actually true. USB was shipping on PC motherboards for about a year before Apple went whole hog on USB. At the time, however, almost no one actually used USB (I think the first primary use of USB was keyboards and mice, and the first generation of USB keyboards and mice were notably inferior to their PS2 equivalents). Once Apple backed USB, o…

More information here: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2785/did-apple-j...

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#152

Post by rz2k »

digi_owl wrote: post #138
bdcravens wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It even happens at the cable level. I've had a couple of devices (Galaxy S3, Mophie) that required me to the use the proper higher-quality cable, despite being standard micro USB.

If i recall correctly, that's because the basic signaling for USB charging is resistance based. Too high a resistance on the wire, and it may heat up (even melt the plastic wrapping) if they try to draw more than the default 500mA USB amount.

I believe that higher currents are negotiated with digital signalling. Does that allow for the two ends talk to each other to determine the performance of a cable between them? The Apple lightning cables themselves include a chip.

Anyway, an interesting thing about USB C (and maybe 3.0, too) is that it can also negotiate 12 or 20 volts and even up to 5 amps. For the same wattage, a higher voltage will heat the cable less.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#153

Post by josefresco »

melling wrote: post #8
imaginenore wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple using a standard connector, dream on.

Apple led the way with the original USB in the late 90's. PC companies and users dragged their feet. "We don't like change." It took almost 5 years to gain traction. A couple months ago on HN I asked about PC's getting the new USB C connector and no one seemed in a hurry. It won't be a standard until PC's ship with at least one port.

Apple wasn't even involved in the creation of the USB spec. Every major PC manufacturer was, and had committed to the spec already. Apple did "lead the way' by shipping a computer with no legacy ports, but the PC industry hardly "dragged their feet". It takes years to churn so many PCs with (legacy ports) which dominated the market.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#154

Post by digi_owl »

rz2k wrote: post #152
digi_owl wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If i recall correctly, that's because the basic signaling for USB charging is resistance based. Too high a resistance on the wire, and it may heat up (even melt the plastic wrapping) if they try to draw more than the default 500mA USB amount.

I believe that higher currents are negotiated with digital signalling. Does that allow for the two ends talk to each other to determine the performance of a cable between them? The Apple lightning cables themselves include a chip. Anyway, an interesting thing about USB C (and maybe 3.0, too) is that it can also negotiate 12 or 20 volts and even up to 5 amps. For the same wattage, a higher voltage will heat the cable…

Its a bit of both.

If the data pins are shorted facing the device (so that the device detects its own outgoing signal on the incoming pin) it will consider the port a dumb charger port and attempt to charge from it based on the cable quality.

If there is a proper port response, and the port claim to be a charging port, the device can ask for more than 500mA in increments of 100mA. There will be limitations depending on there being ongoing data traffic or not.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#155

Post by zaphoyd »

toothbrush wrote: post #134
jacobolus wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple using a standard connector, dream on. Apple is clearly pushing heavily behind the scenes in both the USB-IF and with Intel/Thunderbolt to drive USB Type C ports. Reportedly their engineers did much of the work designing the port. Looking at their one-port Macbook, they’re obviously heavily invested in USB Type C’s success. I assume every future Mac is going to be mostly USB Type C ports. Can you clarify what…

I admit i'm not super clued-up on this, but i just looked up the new MacBook. Does that mean i have to choose between charging, connecting a video projector, and using some USB hub i'll have to lug around to be able to read someone's presentation of a USB key? I wouldn't want to be in a position where i'm forced to run on the battery in certain circumstances (i'm a bit paranoid about the battery running out -- this i…

In the short term, yes, except adapters with multiple ports like apple's USB-c To HDMI adaptor that has both an HDMI port and another USB port to plug in power. Long term.. I would expect projectors/displays to supply power to their connected laptop.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#156

Post by zaphoyd »

berberous wrote: post #7

Can someone explain whether I should care that they are still using DP 1.2 rather than 1.3? I had thought 1.3 was needed for non stitched 4k 60hz, but this should have plenty of bandwidth, so I'm now not sure what the issue with 1.2 vs 1.3 is.

It appears that this cable has 8 lanes of DP 1.2 connectivity. 4 DP 1.2 lanes is enough for a non-tiled 4K 60hz display. So TB3 can supply enough bandwidth for two of them. A 5K 60Hz display requires either DP1.3's higher bandwidth lanes or more than 4 DP1.2 lanes teamed in a tiled arrangement. TB3 with DP1.2 will be able to handle single tile 4K displays or double tiled 5K. It will not be able to handle single tile 5K or the other features of DP1.3 (high refresh rate/8K/alternate bit depths)

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#157

Post by lfuller »

lawl wrote: post #104
jimmy0x52 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just glue over your USB-C ports with tinfoil.

You do realize that this is a very easy to pull off attack? http://www.breaknenter.org/projects/inception/ Do you also think people who use screenlocks are tinfoil hatters?

It's more that your computer should be considered compromised regardless if you allow someone to gain physical access to it. You should know where your device is at all times.

I'm not willing to throw away my device's resale value to block a physical compromise attack.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#158

Post by pgeorgi »

cmsj wrote: post #121
jordanthoms wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is, that if you have a thunderbolt over USB-C display, and plug it into a normal USB-C port on your laptop (say the latest macbook), it won't work, since the laptop doesn't support the thunderbolt signaling. So it's a new point of confusion - USB devices which are physically compatible but not electrically. It's something that could possibly be solved through the markings on the devices etc and I st…

I don't think we have enough detail about Thunderbolt 3 yet to know whether devices will be able to detect that they are connected to a USB port and not a Thunderbolt port. If they can detect that, they may well be able to choose to degrade. It seems like an ideal way for Apple to be able to ship a display which can be connected to both thunderbolt and USB-C hosts, without the user having to care. Obviously some Thun…

The Type C spec also mentions a PCIe alternate mode. The main complication is to support both wrapper protocols given that thunderbolt pushes twice the bits per second over the same wire (if using active cabling)

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#159

Post by mikhailt »

hendersoon wrote: post #126

Sadly, the blocker for external graphics isn't the power draw, it's that Intel steadfastly refuses to license Thunderbolt for external GPU enclosures. That's why you can't buy a macbook air and plug in a little $300 box with a GeForce 970 and play high-end games on it right now. There are no technical reasons why this won't work-- in fact, people have hacked together solutions that work great. Intel doesn't want to l…

Not anymore with TB3:

From: http://www.anandtech.com/show/9331/intel-announces-thunderbo...

>>> Meanwhile gamers will be happy to hear that Intel is finally moving forward on external graphics via Thunderbolt, and after more than a few false starts, external GPUs now have the company’s blessing and support. While Thunderbolt has in theory always been able of supporting external graphics (it’s just a PCIe bus), the biggest hold-up has always been handling what to do about GPU hot-plugging and the so-called “surprise removal” scenario. Intel tells us that they have since solved that problem, and are now able to move forward with external graphics. The company is initially partnering with AMD on this endeavor – though nothing excludes NVIDIA in the long-run – with concepts being floated for both a full power external Thunderbolt card chassis, and a smaller “graphics dock” which contains a smaller, cooler (but still more powerful than an iGPU) mobile discrete GPU.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#160

Post by adiabatty »

toothbrush wrote: post #135
ghshephard wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've got it backwards - if I'm reading this correctly, and you own a (for the sake of argument), 2016 MacBook Pro - your Thunderbolt 3 ports will support everything. USB/Thunderbolt are now using the same physical interface (no need for dongles), and Thunderbolt 3 will support USB 3.1. In the incredibly rare (will likely never be seen by an average consumer) scenario that you have some high-end equipment th…

I admit i'm not super clued-up on this, but i just looked up the new MacBook, it turns out that the sum total of its ports is one (1) USB-C and one (1) 3.5mm headphone jack. Does that mean i have to choose between charging, connecting a video projector, or using some USB hub i'll have to lug around to be able to read someone's presentation off a USB key while simultaneously connected to a projector? I wouldn't want t…

Assuming you dislike carrying splitter dongles, it sounds like the new MacBook isn't for you.

(It's not for me, either.)

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