ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation • Hacker News Board

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#151

Post by mortyseinfeld » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 2:18 AM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #72

JHSheridan wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Facing bankruptcy is facing bankruptcy. Politicians can make it sound as complicated as they like, but at the end of the day, if you owe a man $20, you're going to have to pay him. It doesn't really matter who is at fault. I don't know enough about the NHS to say with any certainty, but I imagine the way the hospitals stay open and patients get their drugs is by the NHS going into more debt (please correc…

The NHS is not set up to make money, it is set up to spend it. You appear to think it is some kind of profit making enterprise - it is a way of spending taxpayers money to safeguard their health, and does so in a demonstrably more efficient manner than private healthcare systems based on insurance, despite any flaws it may have. Compare costs with the US for example. Clearly it will never turn a profit in pounds and…

Talking of bankruptcy in that context is a nonsense introduced by politicians intent on doing away with it for ideological reasons.

And that comment is a perfect example why we still have people on HN saying things like "free" healthcare. But at the end of the day it all costs money. It's just this make-believe world that some people want to live in...amazing.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#152

Post by MBCook » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 2:37 AM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #9

So what they're doing in general goes in the direction completely opposite to what the broken windows theory would suggest... It seems really weird to me - it's one thing to try to be friendly with someone who's already planning a crime and something completely different when you're providing both incentive and funding for new crime (pawn shops).

Sounds like broken windows to me. They break the windows they arrest people who show up to do more damage. And some people they suggested do damage. And they guy they had break the window. And someone walking by.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#153

Post by cgore » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 2:54 AM UTC

beat wrote: post #77

beat wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Godwin's Law exists for a reason, man. (signed, a pro-gun liberal who loathes your bad line of reasoning)

To put it another way... if you can't win your argument without going Godwin, maybe your position isn't very strong. Leading with Godwin is the sign of a very weak argument, or a very weak arguer.

I think the Godwin rule is good for stuff that is extreme hyperbole, and typically just examples of attacks on character. The 'Soup Nazi' from Seinfeld being a good example: it was one of my favorite episodes, but really, the soup restaurant guy is Hitler?

But I am literally making a point about something that I think is truly key to preserving democratic society in America, or whatever is left of it, and I would view the removal of private gun ownership in the United States as actually being a prelude to something as bad as Nazi Germany. I think the Second Amendment is the keystone to all of the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Basically, calling your boss Hitler because he made you work on the weekend is absurd, but making comparisons between Hitler and somebody like Pol-Pot is quite legitimate.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#154

Post by talmand » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 3:10 AM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #143

talmand wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I'm feel for you that you lost a loved one in that manner. I share a similar pain because I have lost two family members to suicide, one with a gun and one without. Both succeeded on the first attempt. I suppose I should advocate the banning of personal ownership of shower curtains and shower rods. From my perspective, the how was not a factor for me. I was more concerned over the why. To this day I have my th…

True, a lot of time was spent prolonging an unhappy life or at least trying to postpone the inevitable. However he was pleased to receive the company of friends. To say 'here you go, gun/pills in top drawer, help yourself!' is a betrayal of life, one would be breaking ranks with every sentient being that has life force and believes living is an ideologically sound thing to do. Yet, you are right, with hindsight, it w…

Please understand, I wasn't suggesting that you should have helped your friend with his act. If I did seem to suggest that then I apologize, that was not my intent.

Personally, I feel that every human life lost is a tragedy in some way. Some are obvious, some not so much, and some we choose not to see it that way. But to someone, it's likely a tragedy to them.

There are cases where I can understand suicide, people with serious medical conditions that give them a life of pain without hope of relief for example. It's a fine line though and one of serious discussion these days. Especially in the US where we have so many of veterans committing suicide, it's truly heart-breaking.

I often wonder what our West would have been like without the gun, but you might as well ask what Europe would have been like without sword and shield. Sadly, we'll never know.

Keep in mind, I personally see a difference between "gun culture" and "thug culture" as it's usually called. One is not necessarily the same as the other.

I find it doubtful that we as Americans would ever move on DC, if we did there are likely really big problems in the world in general. So far our system of changing the hands of power has worked okay. Bumps in the road here and there, a few mistakes for sure, but as long as the current guy is willing to step down for the next guy (regardless of which political office we're talking about) then I can't really such a thing happening.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#155

Post by Aloha » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 3:22 AM UTC

How is this not entrapment?

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#156

Post by freehunter » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 3:25 AM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #121

freehunter wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously inconvenience? I'm a hunter and I also target shoot for recreation, and I can't say a 10 or 15 round limit is an inconvenience at all, let alone a serious one. If you're hunting and you need to fire 10 or 15 shots without taking the time to reload, you're dangerously ill-equipped to be using a gun. You're placing everyone else at risk as you're wildly slinging bullets through the forest. If you're target sh…

> If you're using a gun in self defense and you need more than 10 or 15 rounds, again, you're woefully under-equipped to be using a gun. Unlike game and paper targets, people you are defending yourself from, can shoot back at you.

In what reality would a long drawn-out firefight between me and a bad guy happen often enough for me to be "seriously inconvenienced" by the fact that I only have a 10 round clip? Does that ever actually happen?

The only way I can see that happening is if I'm wildly firing rounds towards a target hoping something hits. Not very realistic.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#157

Post by mayneack » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 3:26 AM UTC

lwhalen wrote: post #98

bandushrew wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you carry a cellphone, the government does know where you are at all times. this is now established fact. why do you care so much more when the discussion is around guns?

We don't have a Constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to own cell-phones, for one.

I don't know.

> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Legislating away cell phones seems like it infringes my right to regulate my militia.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#158

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 3:29 AM UTC

WildUtah wrote: post #147

mxfh wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a myth that Hitler Nazi movement employed gun control to any amount to gain power, it merely employed it as an additional mean once it was there, owning a gun wasn't really of much help at that point. Also it just brushes over that facts that just 12 years before that guns were outlawed completely after WWI in Germany (analog to 2001 as of today), that the Weimar Republic witnessed some rampaging street violence…

The Nazis never won over a third of the vote in an open multi party election in Germany. The insider establishment parties chose to hand power over to the Nazis rather than allow reformers or Communists to threaten entrenched wealth and monopoly power.

[deleted]

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#159

Post by Retric » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 3:36 AM UTC

cgore wrote: post #153

beat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it another way... if you can't win your argument without going Godwin, maybe your position isn't very strong. Leading with Godwin is the sign of a very weak argument, or a very weak arguer.

I think the Godwin rule is good for stuff that is extreme hyperbole, and typically just examples of attacks on character. The 'Soup Nazi' from Seinfeld being a good example: it was one of my favorite episodes, but really, the soup restaurant guy is Hitler? But I am literally making a point about something that I think is truly key to preserving democratic society in America, or whatever is left of it, and I would vie…

If you actually look at modern warfare vs WWII guns in the hands of private citizens are basically useless for fighting the US military. Bombs can be effective but modern body armor, surveillance, medicine, and tactics mean even a well trained and equipped army is going to lose significantly more people let alone people with effing hand guns. See: Iraq and Afghanistan for examples.

Realistically, freedom of the press and due process are far more important and in far more danger than guns which are basically just a talking point / distraction at this point. Or put another way, if everyone in George Orwell's 1984 had a gun nothing would change.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#160

Post by aric » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 3:39 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #149

aric wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morality is important to bring into the equation. Although s/he didn't have to, as you say, I'm glad s/he did. One should always keep ethics as a fundamental layer in discussing law, especially about actions that result in forms of torture (e.g. prison).

The problem with morality is that it's a lot more subject to disputes and individualized viewpoints than law. For example, I think it's ridiculous to say that prison is a form of torture. If you come at me with that as the basis for your argument, we'd just argue past each other and never reach a satisfactory resolution. We'd waste all day with philosophical disagreement. But if we follow a policy of resolving issues…

An individual is not a hive. Law will always have less basis than personal morality. How anyone could think to the contrary is troubling, especially in light of a history replete with oppression and tyranny backed through "law."

The US prison system is a form of torture. This is especially so when used against the hundreds of thousands of benign, nonviolent people. Solve problems, it does not. The physical hurt, torment, and destruction to a person's life and opportunities is far more real than words on paper. Many of the forms of imprisonment that linger on are nothing but a relic of barbarous eras and the sociopathy of it continues in full for those who build careers around it. In no rational, compassionate world would being locked into a cage not be considered a form of torture except possibly in the world of those who are shockingly faithful to following whatever [insert authority] tells them to, through law, and shockingly faithful in assuming the system won't err against oneself.

If a person were to kidnap you off the street and lock you in a cage, placing you into a horrible environment with cutthroat gangs eager for blood where you'll possibly be assaulted at any time and dramatically ruin your prospects if you ever walk free again, you probably wouldn't like it. You'd probably find it quite torturous. Like many, you'd find it a living hell. You'd probably understand that being placed into a cage is a form of torture. That's what prison is to people who disobey immoral laws. I wouldn't wish it for my enemies. This is why always evaluating the ethical basis is more important. Neither "law" nor "just following orders" suffice.

> But if we follow a policy of resolving issues by reference first to the law...

No, I don't enjoy circular reasoning. I only like open discourse. That means anything can be referenced. The philosophical disagreement is far more important to talk about either way. That's unless, of course, one finds oneself trapped in a courtroom of an [arbitrary jurisdiction/nation] where morality is mostly left to rot -- nay those very rare moments where nullification occurs and independent thought triumphs.