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ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

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Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#121

Post by pandaman »

freehunter wrote: post #104
wl wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The magazine size restriction only looks reasonable if you're unfamiliar with guns and how they're used in crime. The most common criminal use of a gun consists of a few rounds, rarely exceeding the capacity of these restricted size magazines. If we move to the much more rare mass shooting, we see that magazine size doesn't really reduce the body count. In the Virginia Tech shooting, for example, the shooter killed 3…

Seriously inconvenience? I'm a hunter and I also target shoot for recreation, and I can't say a 10 or 15 round limit is an inconvenience at all, let alone a serious one. If you're hunting and you need to fire 10 or 15 shots without taking the time to reload, you're dangerously ill-equipped to be using a gun. You're placing everyone else at risk as you're wildly slinging bullets through the forest. If you're target sh…

> If you're using a gun in self defense and you need more than 10 or 15 rounds, again, you're woefully under-equipped to be using a gun.

Unlike game and paper targets, people you are defending yourself from, can shoot back at you.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#122

Post by wavefunction »

mr_luc wrote: post #62
daeken wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting idea. Many crimes are committed due to a lack of options caused by poverty (theft most directly, but many other crimes are correlated strongly with poverty levels), so if a prison has to pay if a released prisoner re-offends, perhaps it's in the best interest of the prison to pay directly to the ex-prisoner, to get them on their feet. Give them a place to live, food budget, whatever. Probably still cheape…

Yeah, some kind of outcomes-based incentives for the prisons seems like a good idea -- it would have to be fairly small, though, to avoid gaming. See that case this past year where a judge (in PA, I think?) had a corrupt relationship with a private prison and sent thousands of people there for minor offenses. I'd love to see "Private Prison" phased out in favor of "Rehabilitation Contractor." But it would require leg…

Not just "people," that corrupt POS judge sent 4000 juevniles as young as eleven to be abused at a "for profit" detention center while he accepted cash for every child he sent there.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2011/0811/Kids-for-cash...

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#123

Post by dm2 »

bambax wrote: post #96
Crito wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Replacing guns and drugs with cars, so that it isn't a topic we feel strongly about (I am pro-legalization for either, in any event)) If a unstable person walking down the street is enticed by a bait car and attempts to steal it, I think we can caulk that up as a win for society. Maybe they would not have tried to steal a car that day, but they are evidently the sort of person that is willing to steal cars. It is be…

> The bate car scenario eliminates the possibility that the officers involved talked the person into it It also doesn't make much sense; what's the difference between a "bate car" and a regular car? Do we need bate cars and people watching those, or regular police officers patrolling the streets and protecting ordinary cars from getting stolen? The whole sting concept lies on the idea that there are inherently bad pe…

It's also an effective deterrent. Car burglars in that area are likely thinking twice about thefts if they've heard about someone stealing a bait car and getting caught.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#124

Post by kansface »

Crito wrote: post #44
herbig wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already carry a cellphone, I presume. Also, I am against most forms of gun control, being otherwise very liberal in my worldview. However, I cannot possibly understand why a developer would need to carry a gun at all times. You are inviting trouble with that, and more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys. If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do…

> more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys. You need to be careful when applying statistical trends to specific individuals. For example, if we suppose hypothetically that impoverished people are more likely to commit robberies, it would be inappropriate to tell a particular impoverished person that they are more likely to commit robberies. Who knows, it could be that the…

Why is this the case: "it does not follow that this particular gun owner is more likely"?

Doesn't this follow from assignment to the set?

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#125

Post by talmand »

Theodores wrote: post #113
talmand wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I feel that it is that simple. Owning a gun does not contribute to suicide. I suppose there might be cases of someone killing themselves with their gun because they feel bad about owning a gun. What you are suggesting makes it easier, but does not contribute. Owning a gun may make it simpler for some people to commit the act, but the sad fact of the matter is it not that difficult to do. There are numerous ways…

A friend of mine eventually succeeded to kill himself. He did so jumping in front of a big lorry on a (British) motorway. There had been many attempts leading to that one. Bodies of water, tall buildings, other road traffic incidents, alcohol and pills were all tried, with quite some determination. None of us could persuade him that his life was well worth living, we all tried. He was the brightest at our school so i…

First, I'm feel for you that you lost a loved one in that manner. I share a similar pain because I have lost two family members to suicide, one with a gun and one without. Both succeeded on the first attempt. I suppose I should advocate the banning of personal ownership of shower curtains and shower rods.

From my perspective, the how was not a factor for me. I was more concerned over the why. To this day I have my thoughts on the why but I'll never know for sure, because they didn't talk to me beforehand. They were sudden and unexpected.

But I'm not about to advocate for the restrictions of people's rights because of what my two family members did to themselves. I appreciate the thinking behind that attitude, I simply just disagree with it.

Sometimes, people make their decisions and there's nothing to be done to change it. Despite access to a gun and your efforts, your friend still killed himself. The only thing that's different is that his pain, perceived and/or real, continued longer than he wished it to. I can't speak of how that fits into the scheme of things because I don't want to claim to know what he was thinking and/or feeling.

As you state, you are in the UK. One thing that is most often missing in these discussions are differences in attitudes from culture to culture. You may not live in a gun culture, I do. But our gun culture has deep roots in mistrust in government, sometimes well-founded and sometimes not. It's not going away anytime soon and ignoring the why's of suicide in an effort to restrict people's rights based on the how's of suicide is just wrong to me.

Yes, I know about the nets in those locations. I also know of similar locations that do not. Those nets are there just as much for the people not planning to jump as it is for people who do.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#126

Post by gpcz »

talmand wrote: post #118
gpcz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I stated elsewhere, the government using its powers to restrict ownership of an inanimate object based on what another individual may or may not do with their own inanimate object is a disgusting abuse of power. Do you believe the government should restrict personal ownership of nuclear weapons, or is that a disgusting abuse of power?

Ah yes, the old personal ownership of nuclear weapons argument, as if that were the same thing and relevant to this discussion. Note, in my comment above when I state "an inanimate object", I am referring to a gun. For you to take that statement and expand it to an extreme such as nuclear weapons is rather childish on your part. Since we've started into childish manner of discussion, are you suggesting then that some…

This is Hacker News -- you are expected not to be sloppy with your argumentation here. If you say "inanimate object" rather than gun, then we're going to assume you are making a more general statement and react accordingly. I cannot read your mind, so please do not assume I (or anyone else) knows your precise opinion on gun control without being precise with your words.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#127

Post by talmand »

swalkergibson wrote: post #114
talmand wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I feel that it is that simple. Owning a gun does not contribute to suicide. I suppose there might be cases of someone killing themselves with their gun because they feel bad about owning a gun. What you are suggesting makes it easier, but does not contribute. Owning a gun may make it simpler for some people to commit the act, but the sad fact of the matter is it not that difficult to do. There are numerous ways…

> Owning a gun does not contribute to suicide. The statistics suggest that you are incorrect. Harvard, the National Institutes of Health, and the Israeli Defense Forces all have studies that point to gun ownership actually increasing suicide risk. http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/03/suicides-vs-handgun-... EDIT: Furthermore, the argument that guns don't kill people is intellectually lazy. Guns are designed to kil…

No, it does not.

The statistics show that firearms are the most popular choice. If it is a contributor then people shoot themselves BECAUSE they own the gun. I fail to follow that sort of logic.

The only connection I can agree with is that firearms allow for snap decisions and fatal first-attempts. Owning a gun does not lead you to a suicide risk, but it doesn't help if you have suicidal tendencies.

That's not enough of a reason to restrict people's rights.

The argument that all guns have only one purpose, which is to kill things, is naive and ignorant. Anyone who states that is being lazy with their arguments, or simply doesn't know anything about guns, because it is easily disproved. There are many guns that are designed for a very specific target and would be incredibly bad to use to kill any living thing.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#128

Post by kansface »

Crito wrote: post #86
wtbob wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would anyone be against that? Both of those things seem perfectly reasonable. Because there's nothing wrong with having a magazine which holds more than 15 rounds. That's the standard size for many black rifles. The universal background check law means that it's illegal for me to give or lend my firearm to my brother, my cousin or my good friend. The existing law was fine: it should be illegal to knowingly tran…

> The universal background check law means that it's illegal for me to give or lend my firearm to my brother, my cousin or my good friend. The existing law was fine: it should be illegal to knowingly transfer a firearm to someone ineligible to own one. To improve the efficacy of the existing law, I think it would be useful to provide a free and anonymous service to the public that allows private gun owners to query t…

You'd need their SSN.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#129

Post by HNaTTY »

Crito wrote: post #63
wl wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, using the term "clip" in this way is common but incorrect. Colorado limited the size of magazines to 15 rounds. Magazines hold ammunition in a way that a gun can pull a round from it when the action cycles. Clips are a specific kind of device for loading some types of magazines.

If we are being pedantic, then the issue becomes fairly fuzzed when you consider guns that have you insert the clip, not just the ammunition, into a fixed magazine. The M1 Garand for example. I don't know of any examples of guns with this sort of setup that would get anywhere near 15 rounds, but I suspect that the M1 specifically has something to do with the common misuse of terminology. It may also be related to som…

You can fix an SKS with a 30 round magazine, which is reloaded via 10 round stripper clips (don't do it though, they're unreliable).

In the case of the M1 and the SKS, the magazine, eg the device that holds the ammunition inside the gun, is the restricted item. The only difference is the magazine is not removed in the field, like with most other guns where that's how you reload.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#130

Post by wavefunction »

Crito wrote: post #108
bambax wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The bate car scenario eliminates the possibility that the officers involved talked the person into it It also doesn't make much sense; what's the difference between a "bate car" and a regular car? Do we need bate cars and people watching those, or regular police officers patrolling the streets and protecting ordinary cars from getting stolen? The whole sting concept lies on the idea that there are inherently bad pe…

Bate cars are placed in high-crime areas, have unambiguous ownership (read: anybody trying to drive away with it is trying to steal it) and are easier to stake out than an entire neighborhood of cars. They require less manpower per arrest. Furthermore, bate cars can be rigged to trap the suspect in the car, eliminating the possibility of dangerous car chases. I am not bullish on punishment. I am instead interested in…

"bait" car - sorry for the pedantry but sometimes it's all I have :O
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