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ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

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Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#21

This is intellectually gratifying. /s

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Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#23

Cue the libertarian versus non-libertarian mudwrestling. It has become increasingly clear to me that the ills of the U.S. pogroms against some recreational drugs are due in no small part to the conversion of the criminal justice system to a for-profit industry. As long as the jobs and budgets are tied to the number of criminals processed rather than the peace and order produced, cop cadres will titrate the frequency…

That's interesting. Is your issue with the for-profit criminal justice system that it's for-profit, or is it with the laws it upholds to bring the profits? In other words, would this still be a problem if all laws upheld were, to your mind, reasonable?

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#24
post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker?

As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f* out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things:

1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allows it). 2. Criminals would just remove the tracker.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#25

Cue the libertarian versus non-libertarian mudwrestling. It has become increasingly clear to me that the ills of the U.S. pogroms against some recreational drugs are due in no small part to the conversion of the criminal justice system to a for-profit industry. As long as the jobs and budgets are tied to the number of criminals processed rather than the peace and order produced, cop cadres will titrate the frequency…

watch http://www.thehouseilivein.org/ it is really worth your while. the best film on the war on drugs and the "prison-industrial complex" :-) i have seen so far. big thumbs up.

available on itunes and amazon instant, "free" streaming versions can be found with a simple google search.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Size is irrelevant. When you declare your mission is a 'war on drugs' you're going to end up losing, plain and simple. Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes. There's something very lazy about arguing about government size. Its just dumb simpleminded platitudes that libertarians pat each other on the back for, bu…

> Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes. Isn't NHS facing bankruptcy?

There's facing bankruptcy and there's facing bankruptcy. The government devolves responsibility for these things to local groups (to cut management overhead and let them respond to local needs | to transfer blame for under-funding away from elected MPs who set funding levels) and there are usually some local groups who report not having enough money (because the unaccountable bureaucrats are wasteful with other people's money | because threatening bankruptcy gets you more money and community support | because the government sets the funding levels to force them to find efficiency savings and not every local group can | because the government wants public sector failures they can point to in support of privatisation).

In practice the hospitals stay open, and patients get their drugs and operations. Reports of impending doom are just politics as usual.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#27

This seems to be a paradigm case of entrapment. This should thus be easily sorted out in the courts. Am I wrong? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

Well yes. But only 4% of the cases end in court - the others are plea deals. So you need competent and capable defense, defendant that is willing to take the risk against the huge prosecutor mallet the DA is swinging and probably some luck.

The targets in the article are from parts of the society that are already outcasts for various reasons.

(Not a lawyer, from observations)

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#28

Cue the libertarian versus non-libertarian mudwrestling. It has become increasingly clear to me that the ills of the U.S. pogroms against some recreational drugs are due in no small part to the conversion of the criminal justice system to a for-profit industry. As long as the jobs and budgets are tied to the number of criminals processed rather than the peace and order produced, cop cadres will titrate the frequency…

I've thought about a way to have a for-profit prison system that would work better. First, give the convict the right to choose which prison to go to (possibly with a particular security category). Then they (the prisons) would have to compete based on how the prisoners are treated. Now, after the prisoner is released, if he reoffends, then the prison that he "attended" would have to foot the bill for the additional incarceration (potentially at a competing prison, if the convict so chooses).

This should cause the prisons to achieve (via market forces) an optimal balance between humane treatment, and proper rehabilitation.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#29
post #24
post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

You already carry a cellphone, I presume.

Also, I am against most forms of gun control, being otherwise very liberal in my worldview.

However, I cannot possibly understand why a developer would need to carry a gun at all times. You are inviting trouble with that, and more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys.

If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do so. But it's the objectively wrong play.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#30
post #5

This article is just copy/pasted snippets from http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/atf-uses-ro...

Note to those from the future: The submission has now been changed to link to this. It used to link to http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/12/feds-pai... under the title "Feds Paid a Teen to Get a Neck Tattoo of a Giant Squid Smoking a Joint"
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