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ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

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Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#41

Post by wylee »

herbig wrote: post #29
pionar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

You already carry a cellphone, I presume. Also, I am against most forms of gun control, being otherwise very liberal in my worldview. However, I cannot possibly understand why a developer would need to carry a gun at all times. You are inviting trouble with that, and more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys. If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do…

A question (maybe a nitpick) about the word "liberal"--wouldn't it be more "liberal" to be against gun control since less control means more liberty?

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#42

Post by JHSheridan »

michaelt wrote: post #26
JHSheridan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes. Isn't NHS facing bankruptcy?

There's facing bankruptcy and there's facing bankruptcy. The government devolves responsibility for these things to local groups (to cut management overhead and let them respond to local needs | to transfer blame for under-funding away from elected MPs who set funding levels) and there are usually some local groups who report not having enough money (because the unaccountable bureaucrats are wasteful with other peopl…

I disagree. Facing bankruptcy is facing bankruptcy. Politicians can make it sound as complicated as they like, but at the end of the day, if you owe a man $20, you're going to have to pay him. It doesn't really matter who is at fault.

I don't know enough about the NHS to say with any certainty, but I imagine the way the hospitals stay open and patients get their drugs is by the NHS going into more debt (please correct me if I'm wrong).

There's a difference between impending doom not existing and kicking the can down the road. Ultimately, the taxpayers will end up paying the debt. The question is when.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#43

Post by saosebastiao »

I remember watching Two Guns and thinking that it was an entertaining fiction flick. When I read this story, I couldn't help but think that maybe it was a bit more realistic than I gave it credit for.

On another note, how can these tactics not be construed as entrapment?

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#44

Post by Crito »

herbig wrote: post #29
pionar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

You already carry a cellphone, I presume. Also, I am against most forms of gun control, being otherwise very liberal in my worldview. However, I cannot possibly understand why a developer would need to carry a gun at all times. You are inviting trouble with that, and more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys. If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do…

> more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys.

You need to be careful when applying statistical trends to specific individuals.

For example, if we suppose hypothetically that impoverished people are more likely to commit robberies, it would be inappropriate to tell a particular impoverished person that they are more likely to commit robberies. Who knows, it could be that they are impoverished because they are a monk who has taken a vow of poverty (and therefore has essentials, such as food and housing, provided to them).

In this particular case, while it may be true that gun owners are statistically more likely to be killed by their own gun than by a criminal with a gun, it does not follow that this particular gun owner is more likely to be killed by their own gun. It is possible that most gun owners are dangerously unfamiliar with their guns and basic safety procedures while this particular gun owner is not.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#45

Post by hbags »

wylee wrote: post #41
herbig wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already carry a cellphone, I presume. Also, I am against most forms of gun control, being otherwise very liberal in my worldview. However, I cannot possibly understand why a developer would need to carry a gun at all times. You are inviting trouble with that, and more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys. If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do…

A question (maybe a nitpick) about the word "liberal"--wouldn't it be more "liberal" to be against gun control since less control means more liberty?

It probably depends on whether you believe guns are more likely to create liberty or destroy it.

There are some very reasonable arguments that guns destroy more liberty than they create, and thus it is liberal to be against tools that make violence so easily accessible.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#46

Post by TallGuyShort »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #36

I don't own a gun, but let's assume I become a gun enthusiast and decide to go buy "something cool" I go to my local gun store, which is actually a front for the ATF. In my mind, looks like a bunch of seedy characters, but i assume they're trustworthy because, natch, they have a license from the ATF. I strike up a conversation with the bearded, scraggly guy behind the counter. What would I like? I don't know. How abo…

I don't disagree that what the ATF doing is wrong, but as a gun owner who appreciates both the value of my gun rights and the seriousness of my responsibility to use them safely and wisely, I'd like to suggest an alternate view on where the picture is wrong: you trusted the gun store to be a reliable guide on what can be bought and sold.

Now, I like to get advice from my local gun store as well, but it's purely informational. As someone who possesses lethal weapons, I verify EVERYTHING about what my legal obligations are, what is safe, and what is effective for home defense. I strongly recommend that anybody else do the same. A lot of people believe strongly in the 2nd Amendment, but such a freedom comes with this responsibility.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#47

Post by talmand »

herbig wrote: post #29
pionar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

You already carry a cellphone, I presume. Also, I am against most forms of gun control, being otherwise very liberal in my worldview. However, I cannot possibly understand why a developer would need to carry a gun at all times. You are inviting trouble with that, and more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys. If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do…

Your claim about more likely to die to your own gun is often a misleading statement. The leading type of death caused by firearms in the US is suicide, by a large factor. The leading method of suicide in the US is by firearms. Therefore, if you remove suicide from those numbers the chances of you dieing by your own gun is reduced significantly. Sorry, but this is one of my pet peeves whenever I see a statement like that tossed out without context. Without context, it sounds like you will be killed by your own gun by factors beyond your control, which would be rare indeed. Using it as a way to discourage gun ownership is misleading, unless they have suicidal tendencies.

Also, you don't need your cellphone to defend yourself; you can toss it whenever you choose.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#48

Post by dm2 »

pionar wrote: post #24
dm2 wrote: post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

1. The government doesn't care where you are at any time. Individuals might, but that's why there would be a warrant required to access the system that monitors GPS trackers on guns. There is GPS in your phone and in your car, what's the difference?

2. Of course many would. If you make it slightly more difficult to remove then many would not (and would get caught easier) or would opt to not steal the weapon.

I've known many guns to be stolen in a random burglary and even someone who lost their gun. Criminals might be able to remove the GPS tracker, but they would need to take the weapons somewhere first then remove them, and that would be tracked. It wouldn't be too difficult to require a grinder of some sort to remove the GPS tracker, depending on how it was made and attached.

My main point is that there would be more benefits than drawbacks, but people would fight a bill like that to the bitter end, just because they "don't want the government track them", which is already easy for the government to do if they want to. I support the right to carry a weapon, you can't trust that everyone you meet will not try to harm you, that's just a fact of present day society.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#49

Post by RankingMember »

dm2 wrote: post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

It's for this reason that I'm strongly in favor of body-mounted surveillance cameras for all public servants. The key is making sure that everyone has access to the data, not just some surveillance team in a back room. For stings and such like this, the footage would be held until the end of the operation, but would be required to be released immediately at the end of the operation. "Missing time" would be rigorously scrutinized.

If we really believe that our law enforcement and other public servants are serving the public, there should be zero opposition to allowing anyone to review video archives of officer-mounted cameras at any time via an anonymous, no login needed, web interface. Sunshine is the solution.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#50

Post by strlen »

herbig wrote: post #29
pionar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

You already carry a cellphone, I presume. Also, I am against most forms of gun control, being otherwise very liberal in my worldview. However, I cannot possibly understand why a developer would need to carry a gun at all times. You are inviting trouble with that, and more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys. If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do…

> If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do so. But it's the objectively wrong play.

Have you lived in SoMa or Oakland?

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