Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention • Hacker News Board

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#151

Post by colin_jack » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 3:28 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #21

michaelt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually sign up for a bunch of classes just so I can access the material at a later point when I have time or when I'm interested. How many of those classes have you done the work for? Personally I find the synchronous model helps me complete the course, as it removes the temptation to put things off.

I think the synchronous model makes it easier to have small communities of students working through the same thing at the same time, helping each other.

Same for me.

I also find the assignments/exercises on the courses are first class and that's where a lot of the learning comes in especially when backed up by discussion forum activity from other students. Watching the videos on their own doesn't really appeal to me.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#152

Post by trhtrsh » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 5:02 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #99

michaelochurch wrote: post #37

The issue with Coursera is the synchronous model. The material's good and the selection's excellent, and they deserve a lot of props for solving such a critical problem. College life is sanitized. Real World interjections are rare enough, at that age, to be handled case-by-case when it comes to extensions and such. Adult life is messy and complicated-- sick parents become more common, job demands fluctuate-- and sync…

(1) Editors not google. If we invent the google for L&D all it will do is read the blogs of practioners of the subject, and syllabus writers, then page rank them. Why not cut out the middle man and have academics and practionsers actually recommend the courses, and guide people through. Pretty much the only thing we cannot automate right now is real good editing it is sorely needed in journalism, books, what to watch…

> Why not cut out the middle man and have academics and practionsers actually recommend the courses, and guide people through.

And then we can use an artificial intelligence algorithm to combine the recommendations of all the academics and practitioners, to get an index of recommendations across all fields.

Call it PractictionerRank, or PeerRank, or BookRank, or....

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#153

Post by summerdown2 » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 6:33 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #17

tkahn6 wrote: post #3

I usually sign up for a bunch of classes just so I can access the material at a later point when I have time or when I'm interested. I'm pretty sure that in most cases Coursera locks you out of old material unless you were enrolled. I don't follow along with the class. Synchronous learning, IMO, is an anachronism. We have video recording technology, practically infinite bandwidth, and near speed of light communicatio…

I usually sign up for a bunch of classes just so I can access the material at a later point when I have time or when I'm interested. How many of those classes have you done the work for? Personally I find the synchronous model helps me complete the course, as it removes the temptation to put things off.

Just thought I'd add a data point in the opposite direction. I've signed up to two Coursera courses and two Udacity ones, and it's the Udacity ones I'm sticking with. I've finished Cryptography already and am 1/3 through learning python in CS1.

There is something dispiriting to me about a synchronous model. Once I can't keep up I tend to drop it as a failure, knowing there's no point in working through something that might be removed at any point. I also think it's the way I respond to the "don't break the chain" apps. Once life gets in the way and I do break the chain, I feel like a failure.

I'm quite happy to motivate myself however, so Udacity's model of giving the student however long they need, works perfectly.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#154

Post by summerdown2 » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 6:40 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #132

shawabawa3 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can go to Khan Academy right now, click on a video series, watch a few bites of information and then stop when I'm ready/bored. You can. But you wont. The sad fact is that deadline motivate people. Without having deadlines and structure coursera would have gone nowhere.

This claim is baseless. Please reserve it for after various MOOCs have tried different models and the data supports it. It's possible and even likely that the schedule contributes to motivation for many, but my experience has been the opposite and I'm probably not unique.

You are not unique. I much prefer studying at my own pace, too.

I found class timescales so demotivating I dropped all the Coursera courses in favour of the Udacity ones as soon as it became obvious other things in my life would keep getting in the way.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#155

Post by JabavuAdams » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 7:00 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #96

jcheng wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting and appealing description, but sounds pretty different than what Wikipedia has to say about ADD. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_disorder#se...

It sounds different, but I am simply giving more detail about what happens inside of the disorder. Any decent book written in the last decade will confirm my description. People with ADHD or ADD don't have executive control of what they will focus on. Inability to focus on what you're told to focus on is noticed in most environments as not listening to instructions, inability to stay on assigned task, poor attention…

The one problem I have with an ADHD diagnosis is the power of choosing a useful narrative for oneself. I see an ADHD diagnoses as a stepping stone to letting go of the ADHD diagnosis. Use the tools but don't let your son get stuck there.

Here are various narratives I've had for myself:

1) Child prodigy

2) Failed child prodigy

3) Something's not right about work / study. I know what to do, but in the moment I do the wrong thing or procrastinate egregiously.

4) ADHD (medicated)

5) ADHD (stopped medication due to side-effects and depression)

6) Square peg / round hole. Make (startup) or find square hole.

7) Found square hole. First non-founder programmer at regional success story mobile games company. Crucial to the company, recognized / compensated as such. In demand.

Guess what hasn't changed all that much through all of these narratives? Me. I've just become ... optimized. I'm still terrible at time-sheets and coming in before 11. I would be a failure in a place that expected that.

P.S. Check for sleep issues (e.g. sleep apnea). As a society, I think we encourage and tolerate sleep deprivation to an absurd degree. From what I've seen, chronic sleep deprivation is indistinguishable from ADHD.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#156

Post by eah13 » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 7:26 PM UTC

silverlake wrote: post #146

eah13 wrote: post #68

tl;dr: What's at stake here is the proper roles of ed tech in education. MOOCs are media, only one part of the ecosystem that is developing here, and I think that finding a central role for great educators is key. Coursera and other MOOCs are media properties that monetize viewership (thorugh certificates rather than ads). As media properties, michaelochurch and others are right that the synchronous model isn't reall…

We are following this model with LearningLine (www.learninglineapp.com). We offer an optional "class" format where an instructor is available to answer questions and review homework. With most eLearning, when students hit a topic they don't understand, they have to figure it out themselves. Some will quit when they hit this wall. Our instructors are there to help students keep going. No more web searches for help, ju…

Interesting. I see you have a lot of courses on offer and are 'powered by DevelopMentor'. Are you affiliated with them or serving as a portal/add on to their existing content?

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#157

Post by silverlake » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 8:37 PM UTC

eah13 wrote: post #156

silverlake wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are following this model with LearningLine (www.learninglineapp.com). We offer an optional "class" format where an instructor is available to answer questions and review homework. With most eLearning, when students hit a topic they don't understand, they have to figure it out themselves. Some will quit when they hit this wall. Our instructors are there to help students keep going. No more web searches for help, ju…

Interesting. I see you have a lot of courses on offer and are 'powered by DevelopMentor'. Are you affiliated with them or serving as a portal/add on to their existing content?

DevelopMentor built LearningLine. LearningLine is a general purpose online learning system, sort of like Udemy. DevelopMentor produces content for developer training. We have a bunch of partners developing additional training material. LearningLine is actually free for others to add their content into it. Our focus is on getting high completion rates. In fact our instructors are paid when students complete a task, not when students sign-up.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#158

Post by eah13 » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 9:32 PM UTC

silverlake wrote: post #157

eah13 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I see you have a lot of courses on offer and are 'powered by DevelopMentor'. Are you affiliated with them or serving as a portal/add on to their existing content?

DevelopMentor built LearningLine. LearningLine is a general purpose online learning system, sort of like Udemy. DevelopMentor produces content for developer training. We have a bunch of partners developing additional training material. LearningLine is actually free for others to add their content into it. Our focus is on getting high completion rates. In fact our instructors are paid when students complete a task, no…

> In fact our instructors are paid when students complete a task, not when students sign-up.

Interesting model. I like the thought of trying to align student and instructor motivations. Getting paid for engagement is a great way to do that.

I wonder, though, if it puts pressure on the difficulty of the tasks? Can instructors game this system (if they wanted to, as I'm sure most don't) by the types of tasks they assign, thereby potentially impacting the quality of your content?

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#159

Post by hojoff79 » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

I think the main issue is a matter of motiviation for the classes. And I do not mean people being lazy, but the original impetus behind signing up for these classes.

For the Coursera classes I did sign up for, I did it because I am interested in the subject area, know almost nothing currently and wanted to gain some functional understanding. I would say of the classes I signed up for, and probably 50% of those I have seen all the lectures. But then I go off and incorporate into side projects to test out / make sure I understand the materials. I have never turned in an assignment, (almost) never posted on a message board and never opened a final exam. Why should I? I am going straight to the application of the content into my projects, I've already achieved my goal of understanding and expanding my capabilities.

What reasons would someone have for wanting official completion of the course? On most courses, you do not gain any officially recognized credit, the certificate has limited (if any) commercial marketability for someone... so again, why would I want to go through the hassle of officially completing the course?

Two takeaways from these thoughts are the following: 1) How many people like myself have utilized the content of the course but are not seen as retained due to the fact they do not partake in the academic completion side? 2) What potential motivators can exist in the future to drive completion of the academic side of the coures? (college credit is the first one that comes to mind, but still does not help motivating many users who are above that age). What other drivers could come into being to incentivize?

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#160

Post by silverlake » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 9:58 PM UTC

eah13 wrote: post #158

silverlake wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DevelopMentor built LearningLine. LearningLine is a general purpose online learning system, sort of like Udemy. DevelopMentor produces content for developer training. We have a bunch of partners developing additional training material. LearningLine is actually free for others to add their content into it. Our focus is on getting high completion rates. In fact our instructors are paid when students complete a task, no…

> In fact our instructors are paid when students complete a task, not when students sign-up. Interesting model. I like the thought of trying to align student and instructor motivations. Getting paid for engagement is a great way to do that. I wonder, though, if it puts pressure on the difficulty of the tasks? Can instructors game this system (if they wanted to, as I'm sure most don't) by the types of tasks they assig…

Sorry, that whole bit about paying instructors is just for DevelopMentor's paid content. We review all our content and instructors to ensure high quality. We are obsessed with this problem of retention and completion.

Our partners can put whatever they want in our system. So far our partners are providing free classes to train their customers on new products and features. If a customer learns all the features in your product, it becomes stickier (hopefully).