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Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

rein.pk

91–100 of 165 posts

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#91

The issue with Coursera is the synchronous model. The material's good and the selection's excellent, and they deserve a lot of props for solving such a critical problem. College life is sanitized. Real World interjections are rare enough, at that age, to be handled case-by-case when it comes to extensions and such. Adult life is messy and complicated-- sick parents become more common, job demands fluctuate-- and sync…

Strongly agree with all of michaelochurch's points, especially #1. Frankly, it baffles me that "career tracks" weren't (and still aren't) a core component of the MOOC product offering. (I actually applied to YC S13 with a solution to points 1-3.)

Duke researchers who actually taught a course on Coursera put together a comprehensive report on their experiences. In it, they specifically address the drop-out issue. I highly recommend it: http://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10161/...

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#92

That's because online education tries to simulate traditional education. Back awhile ago free online lecture videos (e.g. Berkeley) were simply uploaded to a page and anyone could go watch them without signing up for a class or otherwise jumping through hoops. This resulted in me watching a few random lectures about subjects I know little or nothing about. Like econ classes, engineering, science, or similar. This was…

> I can go to Khan Academy right now, click on a video series, watch a few bites of information and then stop when I'm ready/bored.

You can. But you wont.

The sad fact is that deadline motivate people. Without having deadlines and structure coursera would have gone nowhere.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#93
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...in our ADD culture. As someone who has personal interaction with the disorder (I'm not officially diagnosed, but probably have it, my son has it, several siblings, nieces and nephews as well), I hate this phrase. Because people use it to mean the exact opposite of what the actual disorder is. People with ADD or ADHD (different names for pretty much the same thing) do not lack focus. To the contrary, a primary char…

"We lack the ability to focus on what we are told to focus on," or indeed in general I find that I lack the ability to control what I'm focusing on. So I reduce distractions and work in a black box. With only one task in front of you, you get it done.

That's it exactly - I guess the noise abatement society is really the self medicated ADD society.

I simply cannot work if I am not in a quiet environment.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#94
Just to throw my hat (opinion) into the ring...

I've tried pretty much all of the "MOOC's" out there, and so far the only two I've stuck with were Codecademy and Udacity. Why? Precisely for the reasons that are mentioned at the article which started this discussion. The format of Edx and Coursera is just all wrong for most people who DO want to learn something but have a busy life that is not conducive to a traditional college class.

Besides which, all too often, Coursera and Edx just throw a college class online (lectures, course notes, homeworks, quizzes, and tests) and call it a day. Then they have arbitrary deadlines--which I acknowledge might help some people but the first time I got a deadline email I decided that it wasn't for me...no matter how interested I was in the class topic. I'm already married and a father who is working part-time while doing a Master's program in Computer Science. So I don't have huge chunks of time available for traditional course work (in addition to my Master's coursework). I have little bits of time every day which I use effectively to progress through the Codecademy and Udacity coursework. Slowly but steadily I'm getting through both and making substantial progress.

But, since Coursera and Edx require huge blocks of time committed every week, and a tight timeline to complete the course, I just don't find it's workable. Which is sad since they seem to offer some tremendous material.

In short, I think that Coursera and Edx (and probably colleges in general) should learn a thing or two from the highly modularized approach of Udacity and Codecademy.

I find that my learning retention and interest remains much higher with both Udacity and Codecademy because they present a little material (little bite-size chunks) which slowly build into more and more challenging material and intersperse "challenges" or "quizzes" throughout--rather than the traditional approach which--by necessity--was far less responsive.

The fact is that online learning doesn't just reach potentially numerous people that wouldn't have otherwise been exposed to such educational opportunities at such a low price (currently free), it potentially allows for a radical rethinking of the traditional education model.

I think that it is sheer ignorance to say, as some have in the comments I've read (and as--apparently--Coursera maintains), that those who don't finish a course just aren't interested enough or motivated enough. This is ridiculous. The very same (allegedly "unmotivated" or "undisciplined" or "uninterested") people may be successfully working their way through Codecademy or Udacity. And yes, it may take them a while, but eventually they'll complete a Codecademy "track" or a Udacity course. And they'll do it one bite-size chunk at a time...and sometimes, say on a weekend, they'll plow through a whole bunch of bite-sized chunks.

When Coursera and Edx adopt a more bite-sized format which isn't oriented around arbitrary deadlines, I'll check them out again. Until then I'll stick with Codeacademy and Udacity.

Bottom-line: the standard model is broken. Lectures and homeworks and quizzes and tests are poor ways to educate. For many years they were the best we could do within the technological constraints we faced. But now we can do better. Heck, I'd encourage everyone working the bleeding edge of online education to think "outside the box" and try new approaches. While the best new approaches I've seen have been those utilized by Udacity and Codecademy, that's not to say that there aren't even better methods--methods better at retaining learners (keeping learners engaged), AND methods which excel at increasing retention of material.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#95

The issue with Coursera is the synchronous model. The material's good and the selection's excellent, and they deserve a lot of props for solving such a critical problem. College life is sanitized. Real World interjections are rare enough, at that age, to be handled case-by-case when it comes to extensions and such. Adult life is messy and complicated-- sick parents become more common, job demands fluctuate-- and sync…

I think this is correct, for the most part. Call me a dirty capitalist, but I think that especially for problem no. 1 the solution probably needs to involve--in a significant way--those who have the most incentive to see it solved. Generally, the incentive for students comes from curiosity, desire to learn new things, and maybe the desire to broaden career options, but not really from "profit," at least in the short term.

But, the companies that have immediate need for a data scientist--those are the folks who have a vested interest in the problem being solved. The trick I think will come down to getting companies involved without having them mucking them up like most "corporate training" is these days.

I guess that's a bit of what's missing for many of the online options so far--a direct "if you do this this will happen" value proposition for the students. Right now it's all driven by our curiosity and a desire to learn, which is great and drives many of us to sign up, but sometimes doesn't trump all the "life" that gets in the way after the coursework gets tough.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#96
post #83
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...in our ADD culture. As someone who has personal interaction with the disorder (I'm not officially diagnosed, but probably have it, my son has it, several siblings, nieces and nephews as well), I hate this phrase. Because people use it to mean the exact opposite of what the actual disorder is. People with ADD or ADHD (different names for pretty much the same thing) do not lack focus. To the contrary, a primary char…

That's an interesting and appealing description, but sounds pretty different than what Wikipedia has to say about ADD. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_disorder#se...

It sounds different, but I am simply giving more detail about what happens inside of the disorder. Any decent book written in the last decade will confirm my description.

People with ADHD or ADD don't have executive control of what they will focus on. Inability to focus on what you're told to focus on is noticed in most environments as not listening to instructions, inability to stay on assigned task, poor attention to detail if you do stay on assigned task, etc. Everything in that link you posted is covered. In most environments your excellent focus on things you're NOT "supposed" to be doing is not likely to be noticed. Or if it is noticed, it likely increases frustration over the inability to pay attention to assigned tasks.

Speaking personally, I was very confused when screening for ADHD was recommended for my son. He seemed to have excellent focus - at 3 he would often get involved in a detailed task for half an hour or more, at 5 he would sit quietly through a full length documentary, then demonstrate how much he had learned for days afterwards. It was not until my sister explained from her experience that this was, in fact, characteristic that I became less resistant to having him screened.

I was also resistant to medicating him because I'd absorbed all of the usual biases about how overmedicating leads to drug abuse. However after being pointed to the statistics for ADHD, medication became a no-brainer. Children with ADHD do not become addicted to their medication, and have the same risks of drug abuse as the general population. By contrast ADHD people who are not treated are at massively increased risk for all kinds of drug abuse, including both prescription drug abuse and cocaine. (Cocaine is an interesting one since it actually is an effective ADHD medication! Though inconvenient, illegal, and subject to abuse.)

Therefore popular wisdom is exactly backwards - appropriate medication for ADHD reduces the odds of drug abuse later in life.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#98
I saw a talk from Andrew Ng a couple of weeks ago where he was asked about the low retention rate. He countered that 40% of people who submit the first homework actually complete the class. I would say that is pretty great retention rate.

Personally, I've signed up for dozens of Coursera courses but I've only completed one (Game Theory). It's not necessarily that the other courses were lacking the ability to keep me enrolled, but rather I never planned to try at them. I sign up to most classes to see the videos and get surface-level understanding of a subject.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#99

The issue with Coursera is the synchronous model. The material's good and the selection's excellent, and they deserve a lot of props for solving such a critical problem. College life is sanitized. Real World interjections are rare enough, at that age, to be handled case-by-case when it comes to extensions and such. Adult life is messy and complicated-- sick parents become more common, job demands fluctuate-- and sync…

(1) Editors not google. If we invent the google for L&D all it will do is read the blogs of practioners of the subject, and syllabus writers, then page rank them.

Why not cut out the middle man and have academics and practionsers actually recommend the courses, and guide people through. Pretty much the only thing we cannot automate right now is real good editing it is sorely needed in journalism, books, what to watch on tv and education courses.

(2) see editing

On both the above points I get the feeling you worry / hope that we shall need to automate huge swathes of this, but I think education is an intensive production - akin to books or films. And so would be due similar levels of review attention.

(3) I think that's not the needed approach - everyone learns at different paces and gets stuck at different points. With maths one approach is large numbers of gradually changing mini tests - if you keep making the same mistake that area is reviewed and revisited till you get it right. I know an Bristol based company doing this now in schools, the success rate - hard to say but the approach seems solid.

Repitition seems to be the mainstay of human learning.

(4) I don't understand- what is automated expert discovery systems? Study groups are an inherently emergent social phenomena - humans are really good at those, so this would be my least worrisome issue - an online calendar and Skype meetings as an example.

Re: Online Education's Dirty Secret - Awful Retention

#100

The issue with Coursera is the synchronous model. The material's good and the selection's excellent, and they deserve a lot of props for solving such a critical problem. College life is sanitized. Real World interjections are rare enough, at that age, to be handled case-by-case when it comes to extensions and such. Adult life is messy and complicated-- sick parents become more common, job demands fluctuate-- and sync…

I think this is correct, for the most part. Call me a dirty capitalist, but I think that especially for problem no. 1 the solution probably needs to involve--in a significant way--those who have the most incentive to see it solved. Generally, the incentive for students comes from curiosity, desire to learn new things, and maybe the desire to broaden career options, but not really from "profit," at least in the short…

Took the words right out of my mouth. Have you had any experience with getting companies/employers involved in something like this? I've been thinking about how MOOCs would fit into streams (or tracks as someone else here said) that lead a learner to an end goal e.g. data scientist, and companies are the most qualified to come up with the criteria for meeting such goals.
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