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More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

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Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#151

Post by TeaBrain »

neallindsay wrote: post #140
Aurornis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't know what is a disorder is or not when you don't know whats "normal" I hesitate to wade into this discussion, but in the case of the conditions listed in the article there are a number of additional symptoms and medical difficulties that go along with the genetic variants. It's not a simple matter of confusion about sex. As for "normal": The biological systems involved are not functioning normally because a g…

> …as intended. Genes and biology in general do not have "intended" purposes.

Genes are what define the instructions guiding biological development and so could be considered to be what defines the intention. With Morris syndrome, factors prevent the genetic instructions from guiding development as defined by the genes. With Morris syndrome, the lack of androgen receptors leads to the genetic sexual development, as guided by the genes, of a male to be suppressed. Swyer syndrome also commonly arises from spontaneous mutations (not being passed from parental genetic material) and can have malignant consequences. A large percentage of those with the condition develop gonadoblastoma.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#152

Post by aaaja »

kulahan wrote: post #8
etchalon wrote: post #5

I'm shocked to find out that sex is more complicated than gender identity, and that there might be a bimodal distribution at play. I have been lied to.

Nothing in biology is really binary anyways. Male and female are just useful groupings because we’re a sexually dimorphic species, but as with anything in nature, that’s mostly a spectrum anyways, with strong representations at the anchoring ends.

Sex is binary in the sense that the two sexes, female and male, refer to the two halves of a system of anisogamous sexual reproduction.

Sexual dimorphism in gonochoric species is a different type of thing to this.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#153

Post by TeaBrain »

realo wrote: post #143
jodrellblank wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article isn't talking about trans people, it's talking about Androgen insensitivity and similar genetic disorders. AFAICT from a quick read, they are no more curable than Downe's Syndrome is.

I know all that. Sorry for the too subtle cynism of my previous comment!

The comment was more farcical and off-topic than it was cynical or subtle.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#154

Post by blueflow »

TeaBrain wrote: post #151
neallindsay wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …as intended. Genes and biology in general do not have "intended" purposes.

Genes are what define the instructions guiding biological development and so could be considered to be what defines the intention. With Morris syndrome, factors prevent the genetic instructions from guiding development as defined by the genes. With Morris syndrome, the lack of androgen receptors leads to the genetic sexual development, as guided by the genes, of a male to be suppressed. Swyer syndrome also commonly a…

Who felt this intention? God?

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#155

Post by dissent »

sunshowers wrote: post #147
dissent wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The well being of our daughters should trump the entitlements of transwomen Trans women are also "our daughters" just as much as cis women (endosex or intersex) are. Caring more about cis daughters' wellbeing than trans daughters' is pretty cissexist!

Anybody is free to agree or disagree with that as they see fit. You yourself qualify them as "trans women", after all. However, you can accept them as "real women" without that automatically entitling them to participate in women's sports. It is justified by the importance of women's sports to the well being of the vast majority. They ought to pick a different hill to die on.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#156

Post by lukev »

EnergyAmy wrote: post #94
pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

It is simple. Organisms that produce the larger of two gamete sizes are female, and organisms that produce the smaller of two gamete sizes are male. "Intersex" is a misleading term that's been phased out in favor of DSD ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development ). Every person is still male or female. Women have a right to sex-specific sports, and anyone that doesn't qualify is free to compete in t…

Should produce... given what definition? I thought gamete size was definitive?

Look, I get what you're saying. Such cases aren't "normal". The claim that "humans have two biological sexes" is true in same way as the claim "humans have five fingers." And yet, people with six fingers exist, as do uncommon sex variations. It's fine. It happens.

The only reason to insist so stridently that there's an absolute and inevitable binary is if you're trying to enforce a social or religious norm, and are insisting that it's an immutable fact about the world instead of something culturally mediated.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#157

Post by EnergyAmy »

drewcoo wrote: post #134
pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

> binary M/F does not exist for sex or gender. https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/gender-has-a-history-and-...

The article is rank nonsense, citing someone that when called on her bullshit backtracked by calling it an "ironic essay":

https://x.com/Fausto_Sterling/status/1229878759261712385

She is deeply unserious, and should be ignored if you value truth.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#158

Post by TeaBrain »

blueflow wrote: post #154
TeaBrain wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genes are what define the instructions guiding biological development and so could be considered to be what defines the intention. With Morris syndrome, factors prevent the genetic instructions from guiding development as defined by the genes. With Morris syndrome, the lack of androgen receptors leads to the genetic sexual development, as guided by the genes, of a male to be suppressed. Swyer syndrome also commonly a…

Who felt this intention? God?

I'm referring to how genes modulate development according to their set of instructions. The way that these genetic instructions are set to be executed can be considered their intention. I'm being liberal in my use of the word "intention" here, but I don't think your absurdist take on my wording was in good faith, so to speak, or constructive.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#159

Post by lukev »

drewcoo wrote: post #133
pseudosavant wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societal gender norms have existed for probably as long as humans have, but we've only known about chromosomes for On the scale of human evolution, this is a very recent situation for society to figure out how to "decide".

> Societal gender norms have existed for probably as long as humans have Or gender norms have existed since gender was defined in the 70s-80s by feminist scholars. Before that was only sex, which biologists know to be not a binary but a bimodal distribution, itself.

That sound you hear is literally every anthropologist laughing hysterically.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#160

Post by sunshowers »

dissent wrote: post #155
sunshowers wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The well being of our daughters should trump the entitlements of transwomen Trans women are also "our daughters" just as much as cis women (endosex or intersex) are. Caring more about cis daughters' wellbeing than trans daughters' is pretty cissexist!

Anybody is free to agree or disagree with that as they see fit. You yourself qualify them as "trans women", after all. However, you can accept them as "real women" without that automatically entitling them to participate in women's sports. It is justified by the importance of women's sports to the well being of the vast majority. They ought to pick a different hill to die on.

A lot of ethics is about when general norms like "greatest good for the greatest number" ought to be suspended. These are complex questions.
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