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Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

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Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#151

Post by CRConrad »

Google234 wrote: post #87
wvenable wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I think the market has shown that if not artificially hampered by the lack of schematics, parts, and DRM that even the most unrepairable seeming products can still be repaired. A motherboard with soldered on components like RAM or CPU are still more likely to fail because of a bad capacitor or some liquid damage on the traces.

Amy evidence for that last assertion?

I think the GP meant that a motherboard with soldered-on components would be more likely to fail because of a bad capacitor or liquid damage than because of the soldered-on RAM or CPU, not more likely than other motherboards with swappable RAM and CPU.

You may have interpreted the statement the latter way. If interpreted as I suggested, surely it's fairly uncontroversial? Capacitors are quite notorious for failing.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#152

Post by CRConrad »

szc wrote: post #144
least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

In a 100% honest world I agree with everything you say. But, the world isn't 100% honest. Let's say company A asks manufacturer F to make 100,000,000 units of a product. One element of this product costs $10. An enterprising person suggests that if 1% of the material submitted to the mfg line was counterfeit, but could be made to pass "inspection" they could make at least $10,000,000. They could resell the "genuine p…

1) Far-fetched AF.

2) Irrelevant: Companies can and do defraud each other already; that has nothing per se to do with right-to-repair.

3) General observation: If one finds oneself needing to write a Breivik-manifesto-length screed in defense and explanation of some viewpoint, that may be a sign that the viewpoint needs rethinking.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#153

Post by CRConrad »

com2kid wrote: post #45
tweetle_beetle wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible. I don't think it's reviewers being harsh in their judgements independently so much as most press of that kind has a symbiotic relationship with manufacturers. They need new products with new USPs, however trivial, to feature to justify their existence. More product updates mean more marketing,…

Having sat in on meetings where mechanical engineers reported the results of working massive overtime to shave each fraction of a millimeter off, I am confident in saying that the relationship tends to resemble an abusive one. (FWIW this was wearables, not phones) To be fair, as a customer, thin and light weight is nice, and given the choice between a phone with a replaceable battery and one that is more mainstream,…

At some point, "thin" becomes synonymous with "sharp". As in, "This fucking thing is so thin it cuts my hand just from holding it!"

I submit for debate the proposition that many manufacturers of hand-held electronic devices have already passed this point.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#154

Post by CRConrad »

com2kid wrote: post #29
formerly_proven wrote: post #4

Reduce reuse recycle is fundamentally against the business model of BigCorpos. Of course they will fight tooth and nail against legislation that impinges on their business model [1]. It goes to show how good Apple's PR department is that people view them as an eco-oriented company (hint: they're literally in the "producing consumer e-waste market"). But I mean people these days also think Microsoft are open-source fr…

As someone who used to work in consumer electronics, I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible. Add an extra millimeter and all of a sudden "tech companies yet again don't understand female audiences as they make yet another monstrously huge device that only men can use." or "this new version is unbelievably thick, and is another failure…

Thinness is a totally bogus selling point.

At least as long as manufacturers make the back side of devices so utterly slippery that you have to put them in some kind of shell just to be able to hold them, lest you drop them six times a day.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#155

Post by KorematsuFred »

kiba wrote: post #68
KorematsuFred wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never understood the demand for "right to repair" laws any ways. Don't you know the terms of repair before you buy the device ? Simply don't buy an iphone if you want to repair it yourself. If there is enough market for repairable devices someone will make them eventually otherwise you are only imposing a huge compliance cost on everyone else and slow down innovation for many companies.

People want schematics and parts available for purchase, as well prohibition of companies from going out of their way to make devices harder to repair as opposed to having to work with design constraint. It's not that complicated or costly to enforce.

> It's not that complicated or costly to enforce.

Two points.

- What is your evidence that it is not complicated or costly ? Remember that lost profits because of repairs is a perfectly valid cost to be considered here. - Someone builds a device, it is their device and they are selling it to you with full advertisement that certain parts can not be repaired. How moral is it to impose additional restriction on such an entity through government coercion ? Seems immoral thing to me. Today it is about repair, tomorrow it will be something else.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#156

Post by KorematsuFred »

least wrote: post #76
KorematsuFred wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never understood the demand for "right to repair" laws any ways. Don't you know the terms of repair before you buy the device ? Simply don't buy an iphone if you want to repair it yourself. If there is enough market for repairable devices someone will make them eventually otherwise you are only imposing a huge compliance cost on everyone else and slow down innovation for many companies.

Is there a huge compliance cost for something like providing schematics for your devices? I agree that people should do their due diligence when purchasing their tech products, but I am strongly against a company doing something solely for the purpose of impeding repairability.

> Is there a huge compliance cost for something like providing schematics for your devices?

Yes. How much cost do you think a large company incurs to make few documents publicly available.

Note that it is not just a document you share, you are putting your entire company's reputation into that doc, every cut corner and opening yourself to potential lawsuites as well.

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